Herb Doctors: On The Back Of A Tiger

PODCAST | Ray Peat

null | Ray Peat

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00:02:42 > ANDREW MURRAY: Well, very welcome to you. You are listening to Ask Your Herb Doctor. My ANDREW MURRAY: name is Andrew Murray. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: My name is Sarah Johannesen Murray. ANDREW MURRAY: We both trained in England and graduated there with a degree in herbal medicine and clients consult with us regarding the health issues and we recommend personalized advice and nutrition supplements, herbs, diet and lifestyle. And we can be reached toll free 1-888- WBM-HERB or on www.westernbotanicalmedicine. com. So a little departure from the last few years and definitely from Dr. Peat’s altruistic and giving all of this time and his energy and his research, I'm very excited show that tonight we are hosting two filmmakers; Brad Abrahams and Jeremy Stuart, who are producing a documentary film called On the Back of a Tiger. They’ve interviewed eight maverick scientists including Dr. Ray Peat who weave an alternate story of life from the molecular level to consciousness and perception, challenging the mainstream medical document with scientific research,

00:03:44 > illuminating radical new ways of understanding disease and its treatment. Welcome Brad and Jeremy to Ask Your Herb Doctor. ANDREW MURRAY: Are you guys with us? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, we are. JEREMY STUART: Yes, thanks for the great intro. It sums it up nicely. ANDREW MURRAY: Excellent. Okay. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And welcome Dr. Peat to the show. RAY PEAT: Yes, hello. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Hi, Dr. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Peat. ANDREW MURRAY: Seems like we have a threesome on the airways. JEREMY STUART: Great. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. So basically then we’ve been very fortunate to interview you Dr. Peat for a number of years now and you frequently mention names during your discourses and they are usually eminent scientists and groundbreaking alternative researches of mainstream medicines alternative to the dogma, if not controversial. Most people view that doctor as an all-knowing entity but many doctors fail to read the research that points to anything other than the dogma which is perpetuated by big pharma. Up until the time that I just realized that Dr. Peat was coming with us a couple of minutes ago had written a small outline for Brad and Jeremy

00:04:46 > apparently who’ve been exhaustively traveling Europe in the year 20 14 to track down these eight principal scientists who they did manage to get one, two and three day interviews with I think. So I wanted to cover the timeline with which you started interviewing these scientists starting with Dr. Mae-Wan Ho and give each of you, I don’t know quite how we’re going to work this with both of you on the show. I think one person will do one and the other do another or you can both interject and Dr. Ray ANDREW MURRAY: Peat you too. RAY PEAT: Sure, yes. ANDREW MURRAY: You can all cut in. I wanted to ask both of you two there Jeremy first like I always have done with Dr. Peat. If you would just give an outline of your professional and academic backgrounds, perhaps starting with you Brad. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Sure. Well, my background and Jeremy’s are quite similar, so we could cover both of us. We both went to film school originally and very soon after graduating

00:05:48 > entered the advertising and commercial production world where we were trapped for many years finding a way trying to figure out a way to work on projects that were more meaningful to us and to other people and you just can't do that with a full-time job. It takes up so much of your energy creatively and physically that we ended up quitting. Still working freelance for funds but spending more and more of our time now working on projects like these and we have focused specifically on this project now for the last year or so. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes. Have you had any background reasons for pursuing this kind of health topic medical establishment approach to disease? Is anything pertinent in either of you that this kind of spurred this or… BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, you can go ahead, Jeremy. JEREMY STUART: We both, I think are

00:06:50 > sort of sensitive fragile people in that way like as far as always being more aware of what we eat and sensitive to the environment. Some people are maybe more hypothyroid than others as Ray might say. And so I think we both had similar interests that's how we became friends in the first place while working together seeing that – reading about I think on world's healthiest foods was when we first had our first conversation and realized that we had a lot in common. But seeing health problems in friends and family who couldn't find solutions I think that's always been have background and having an interest in science. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, it was originally for myself just things like really bad digestion, allergies,

00:07:52 > fatigue, and a lot of it I think came with overworking and just the confines of the modern world but more recently it's been seeing deteriorating health of family and friends, and in particular, my father who has been in the last couple of years had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And I was already skeptical with the establishment, medical establishment but just seeing the bad signs and really suspect mottos particularly with this disease really spurred a sense of urgency creating a project like this. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And Jeremy and Brad, I was wondering how did you first find out about Dr. Peat, because I know that you wanted this film, and initially you were thinking this film was going to be focused solely on Dr. Ray Peat. How did you first hear about Dr. Peat? JEREMY STUART: Well, I was introduced to him by Brad. Brad do you found him through –

00:08:54 > is it Danny Roddy? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, originally Danny Roddy. I had been on the rollercoaster of diets and in need of recovery and had found Danny's site that had mentioned Dr. Peat and just know that’s fascinating someone looking at health and nutrition and starting at the molecule level and actually really understanding that having such a solid grasp of the biochemistry. It took a long time. The work is dense and hard to understand for someone without a scientific background, so it took a long time. It took actually a couple of years of reading and listening and talking with Jeremy and others to really have that grasp on the unique view and then also self experimentation with diet and certain lifestyle things that really

00:09:56 > ended up having quite a large impact I think in both of our BRAD ABRAHAMS: health. JEREMY STUART: Definitely. And it was a while we were aware reading Ray’s work for quite a long time before we talked about the idea of doing a documentary, and I think it coincided and somewhat inspired doing something, getting into a project that was more meaningful and outside of the commercial world that we've been in for so long. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: That's excellent. Well, I’ll just talk about Dr Ray Peat. I think we need to ask Dr. Ray Peat what your professional and academic background is if there is listeners tonight that have not had heard our show in previous months. RAY PEAT: I was studying art and literature as another graduate and I did my Masters thesis mostly on William Blake and all that time I was interested in life in general and saw biology

00:10:58 > as a way to get some concrete facts that would confirm alternative views because I saw in the humanities dogma and political opinions influencing what was teachable in the universities and I thought that real science might have relevance to the humanities. And as soon as I enrolled at the University of Oregon to work on a Ph.D. in biology after taking a few years out in between my Masters, but I quickly realized that biology was exactly as unscientific as linguistics philosophy literature and so on. Ideology

00:12:00 > was right at the center of nerve biology. And so I wrote to the Gilbert Ling, and as I told him what my professors were teaching that he and others had shown to be profoundly wrong 20 years previously and he answered and said you just don't understand what science is. Science is all about prestige and money. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And how – so what year was that that you wrote to... RAY PEAT: 1968 I think in the fall when I started at the university and just after a few more months working with the nerve biology or brain people, I found that the reproductive biologist was actually a scientist who – when I observed things that were countered to the dogma he

00:13:02 > said is it repeatable, then RAY PEAT: go ahead. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Great. So he had an open mind to science? RAY PEAT: Yes and the nerve biologist said – he wouldn't even look at the experiments that I was doing. All of my experiments showed something contrary to the nerve dogma and my professor would just turn instantly so he didn't have to see what the instruments were filling. ANDREW MURRAY: Excellent. That is the trust and I definitely haven't spoken to you Dr. Peat since early on the week before we even invited Brad and Jeremy to the show but that's exactly the trust of where tonight's show is going. So the scientists that we mentioned earlier – sorry, we haven't mentioned the scientists yet but I was saying earlier that you have in the course of the last several years whenever we do radio shows, we will always throw out these eminent scientists name and we look at them like Gerald Pollack and Mae-Wan Ho, Gilbert Ling etcetera. And Jeremy and Brad took it upon themselves to go take a list of these people and go and see

00:14:04 > if they could track them down and film them. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: I want to know how that came about when Jeremy and Brad were talking to you, Ray. ANDREW MURRAY: Well, one minute. I just wanted to say they at this point in time in postproduction, sorry preproduction, the editing stage. They have produced a fantastic couple of minutes movie clip showing all the different people that they’ve interviewed and these people are all on the cutting edge. They are all PhD. They are professors. They are research scientists. They are all very respectable people who’ve produced works in published journals etcetera and they are directly refuting some long-held tenants and dogma of science that most people just get faced with by their doctors because the doctors are not reading research. So the whole trust of tonight’s show was not only to bring out these scientists and various different aspects of what they are looking at in science but to let people know that they can find out more about this movie that’s being created by going to www. perceivethinkact. So perceive, think, act ANDREW MURRAY: is the main link. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Dot com.

00:15:06 > ANDREW MURRAY: Dot com of course. You can just put that perceive, think, act in a Google search term and see – Google search bar, it will take you straight to their website and you’ll be able to see what the work that they are doing. So yes, the main thing is I wanted to go through the different scientists that Dr. Peat has mentioned in past that Jeremy and Brad went to see on different continents and get a feeling for the kind of science that they’ve put together in, I don’t know, how many hours. How many hours do you think you took altogether and how many hours do you think the DVD will be? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, in terms of raw footage so far we’ve shot hundreds of hours BRAD ABRAHAMS: but… JEREMY STUART: Yes, about 200 hours. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, but the final project will be a feature film length but perhaps we are going to explore maybe shorter series that could cover more BRAD ABRAHAMS: ground as well. ANDREW MURRAY: In depth, okay, ANDREW MURRAY: cool. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Okay, so Dr. Peat, how did you come up with the idea for Brad and Jeremy, or Brad and Jeremy how did you come up with it to interview these other scientists?

00:16:08 > BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, it was the original communication we had with Dr. Peat talking about this idea and he mentioned or asked had we thought about talking to Harold Hillman and we had heard of Harold Hillman but hadn't really looked into him and he mentioned couple other names Mae-Wan Ho and we started diving deeper into their work and realizing there is a much larger story to tell here and that really sparked this quest to then sort of check off all of the people whose what seem like desperate theories, Ray has connected the dots and woven together into what we think is a fairly cohesive new model for the workings of life. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: That’s why I keep telling Dr. Peat, we need to write a book that’s called the Peat manual instead of the Merck Manual, so Peat manual.

00:17:10 > ANDREW MURRAY: Who knows. Okay, so let's start with Dr. Mae-Wan Ho just because you have firsthand knowledge of her and you’ve met her and maybe you can just give an outline of Mae-Wan Ho’s background, her philosophy and her character. JEREMY STUART: She has covered a lot of different topics. I think probably what she is known for being most controversial on is GMOs. But mainly what we talked to her about is her study of basically quantum biology and the crystalline structure of organisms and she did a number of experiments using a type of microscope that's I think generally used in geology and it basically uses polarized light and allows you to look at generally like the structure of crystals and rocks. But she found that the small organisms had the

00:18:12 > same sort of crystalline structure in a liquid form and I think that was kind of the inspiring paradigm shifting thought to her. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. JEREMY STUART: And it fits in with things like structured water and thinking about the organism in a way that it's in the mechanistic views of science and various sorts of chemical biology is totally counter to that type of thinking. So she wrote the book Rainbow and the Worm which is kind of all about that. ANDREW MURRAY: Rainbow in the… BRAD ABRAHAMS: It’s called the Rainbow and the Worm. ANDREW MURRAY: Rainbow and the worm, okay, got it. Okay. BRAD ABRAHAMS: And that also – those findings to her that connected with criticisms against neo-Darwinism as well as if the organism is not fundamentally so mechanistic and

00:19:14 > much more fluid and subtle then it would support to the theory is more in line with Sidney Fox and others. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. But Dr. Peat given that you are on the show, let's just quickly ask you of a rundown for way Mae-Wan Ho if you like just because you’ve always – you’re the one that’s been mentioning her in the first instance. What springs to your mind? RAY PEAT: That image of the worm really is one of the most important things that people should start thinking about. The quantum biology I think Albert Szent-Györgyi actually was one that motivated people to start going in that direction of electronic biology and coherent view of the cell. Mae-Wan Ho

00:20:16 > is to a great degree an extension of some of Albert Szent-Györgyi’s RAY PEAT: ideas. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. All right, moving onto Harold Hillman and I think he's the next person. First of all, when did you first interview Mae-Wan Ho? What date are we looking at now? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, we actually started with BRAD ABRAHAMS: Harold Hillman. ANDREW MURRAY: You did? I’m sorry. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, but only a few days before Mae-Wan Ho and it was around the 15th of April of last year. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. Yes, so you went to England? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. JEREMY STUART: It was – yes, planning our first trip, we run into [indiscernible] and there were several people in England so there was Harold Hillman and Mae-Wan Ho was like our – Harold was our first interview and then two days later we went to JEREMY STUART: see Mae-Wan Ho. ANDREW MURRAY: So tell me a little bit about Harold Hillman and his background and what he was like and what he has contributed to the documentary? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well he – the

00:21:18 > crux of his work is his criticisms of traditional microscopy as well as electron, the use of the electron microscope. And most of the structures we see when we are looking through them are artifacts and this is because of the processing that what was once living material has to go through and would make your head spin hearing him list all of the things that the dehydration, dying, smashing and what you're left with is something that there is almost no resemblance to an actual living cell, so then how can you learn about the living cell when what you're looking at are basically artifacts. ANDREW MURRAY: And is he ANDREW MURRAY: saying that this is still happening in mainstream biology. This is still the norm? JEREMY STUART: Yes. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. JEREMY STUART: He made a film. ANDREW MURRAY: Go ahead, sorry. JEREMY STUART: On YouTube there is old films of his that you can watch and it's still – it's pretty pertinent today. It's really simple which

00:22:20 > is what I think makes his criticisms so inflammatory is he just shows side-by-side of a cell being prepared for microscope slide and you’ve got the living cell on one side looking like a transparent blob and then after it goes through all of the steps of being wash in alcohol and various other compounds, it's like about the third the size and all squashed and squidly looking. ANDREW MURRAY: Does he do anything with live blood microscopy? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Not himself personally but he did – we ask him about the techniques currently in use that do let you look at or at least more accurate than light microscopy or the electron microscope. And going back to what Dr. Peat had experienced when he was a student, his professor not even wanting to look at what he was doing, similar with Dr. Hillman. His work was so difficult to

00:23:22 > criticize that people would just leave the room when he would come in at scientific conferences. They would literally turn around and run away because they just didn't want BRAD ABRAHAMS: to hear him speak. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: They’d rather keep their paycheck coming in and actually look at what science might SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: be showing them. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: Unfortunately in the medical world and /or the scientific world, the ego I think gets in the way so much that people don’t even see the truth when it’s right in front of them, but yes, at the same time there are people that have very alternative ways of looking at things like Dr. Peat and the people that you’ve seen. So this again is a part point of your documentary is to illustrate I think from that first instance you talked about Harold being the first person you saw as pretty interesting because he is the person who is you’re saying is refuting a lot of what microscopy BRAD ABRAHAMS: is revealing. JEREMY STUART: Yes, JEREMY STUART: exactly. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Where it all starts from, yes, rotten foundation is basically. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. RAY PEAT: There was an famous Swedish electron microscopy expert named [indiscernible] who did

00:24:24 > a lot of very clear explanation using different fixative showing how profound the artifacts are in a standard preparation and he was a mainstream researcher but the mainstream simply overlooked his work on the artifacts. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay, well let's move onto Dr. Gerald Pollack. A lot of people that listen to the show may well have mentioned – sorry, may well have heard his name mentioned in the past and may well know him from his structured water. Well, he is kind of – he is called the water wizard I think they call him. Go ahead either one of you want to start and tell us a little bit about Gerald Pollack and what you gained from his interview? JEREMY STUART: Well, yes, he is really known probably more widely than anyone else that we've interviewed so far as far

00:25:26 > as having – he has got the mainstream talks. He has done TED Talk and his focus today is really on what they generally call structured water another face that – it's one of those topics. I think he's really unpopular in his department because he has chosen to study something that seems like obviously it's already even figured out. But they do some fairly simple experiments to show that there are more unusual electrically based forms of water and they create – they call it EZ Water, the Exclusion Zone. When you get the water building up on a surface and it purifies itself basically everything becomes excluded from it. And that seems to be the exact kind of water – how water structured inside cells. So it has all sorts of implications for

00:26:28 > further understanding biology. BRAD ABRAHAMS: And he found that one of the substances that seems to create EZ Water or structured water with the most affinity is aspirin which we found very interesting in that it has such broad effects in the body and if it's connected to that attribute of it. JEREMY STUART: Yes, the stabilizing effect of water. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. Dr. Peat I know you’ve always been a proponent of aspirin for quite a wide range of different conditions, inflammatory generally, but do you have anything to say on Gerald Pollack? RAY PEAT: Well, everything he has been doing in recent years is just extremely interesting. He has developed some theories on how light energy, infrared, is used in

00:27:30 > building structure in water and there is a young German named Andrei Sommer who is working with red light structuring water, very similar and a very concrete demonstration of what on a bigger scale Gerald is working on. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: So is that some of the reason why red light is so anti-inflammatory because of its effect on the water of the SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: cell? RAY PEAT: Yes, I think that's part of it. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Well, it’s a good time of year to get your red light folks. It’s nice and sunny here SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: in California. BRAD ABRAHAMS: It was also just really hardening to see Gerald’s lab. It's easy to feel gloomy when pondering all the ills in her medical and scientific establishments but Gerald’s lab is full of young and excited inspired scientists

00:28:32 > that are working on all sorts of interesting endeavors that – it just – it made us hopeful for the next generation. JEREMY STUART: Yes, one of his students who, I think is sort of his – the top guy under him now, originally did the project trying to disprove him and I think he spent a year and then he proved to himself basically that Gerald was doing good science and joined his side. ANDREW MURRAY: Excellent. Okay, so from the first three that we mentioned there, Mae-Wan Ho, Howard Hillman and Gerald Pollack, they are all doctors but didn’t say that to begin with. So starting with Mae-Wan Ho then looking at polarized light and quantum biology criticizing the neo-Darvisnism that’s kind of so prevalent in the scientific community and then Howard Hillman the microscopist looking at microscopy as or what’s being done in microscopy is being poor science and actually very

00:29:34 > damaging, if you like, to the subject that’s being visualized and how that can impact various experiments. And then also then Gerald Pollack in structured water. So I know we got several other scientists that are likely to cover that you’ve been with but first of all just let me – let people know who are listening. This is Ask Your Herb Doctor on KMUD Garberville 91.1 FM and we’re interviewing Jeremy and Brad, and let me just get this right. It is Jeremy Stuart and ANDREW MURRAY: Brad Abrahams. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: And Dr. Peat is with us, although I thought Dr. Peat actually was going to have the evening off. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, we’re glad that he is here. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, we’re very glad too. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: We’re very glad. ANDREW MURRAY: So we definitely appreciate that. But these two gentlemen are documentary filmmakers and they have done the seemingly impossible and interviewed eight of these scientists that Dr. Peat has been talking about for many years now when he brings out his various different anecdotes as he always does and have producing a fantastic documentary film

00:30:36 > kind of unifying all of the theories I think in some ways that Dr. Peat is able to understand that all these people working in their individual fields are contributing all the same sort of unifying knowledge to an approach in a framework to approaching disease that is so radical and hopefully it’s about time for mainstream science to wake up and some people to see what’s going on. We’ve always said for those who have the ears to listen, let them hear. So they can be reached at www. perceivethinkact. com. So go ahead and check them out on the web and see the work they are doing. It’s really quite special. So let's move on then Brad and Jeremy to Dr. Gilbert Ling and tell us a little bit about this fellow and I think actually for some ways this next couple of peoples seem to be getting on in their years. They’ve been doing it for a long time, so let's talk about Gilbert Ling. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, Gilbert I think now is 96, I believe, and when we saw him he was in

00:31:38 > shockingly good health, living alone in a mansion, basically running up and down the stairs, doing everything for himself. The only issue really being his hearing but recently he had a health complication and is now not able to live on his own. Unfortunately yes, but he seems to be getting back to his old self which is good to hear. But it's really difficult to sum up Gilbert's past achievements but he is most known for disproving the sodium pump hypothesis which is at the root of all basically thoughts on physiology and the role of the cell membrane in that sodium pipe hypothesis and his hypothesis called the association- induction hypothesis. It basically details a totally different, totally unconventional

00:32:42 > model of... ANDREW MURRAY: Units based only on physics and chemistry. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Actual BRAD ABRAHAMS: science. JEREMY STUART: Yes, that’s what’s so forward-thinking BRAD ABRAHAMS: about it. ANDREW MURRAY: It’s scientific and reproducible you’re saying is something that. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, I think he has done possibly thousands of experiments showing the work and improving it that have all but being ignored and they won't even – if he submits a paper to even on an unrelated subject to any journal, they reject it just saying because – yes, they don't even read it. They just send him a rejection notice because BRAD ABRAHAMS: of his name. ANDREW MURRAY: Now, Dr. Peat I know that when we’ve spoken to you in the past and I again unfortunately ran through an education where it was very science-based and it was same kind of erroneous. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Not really science-based, it pretended to be science-based but really it was just SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: medical dogma. ANDREW MURRAY: We still had sodium pumps and potassium pumps and all that kind of stuff moving, allowing things to be transported across and I know

00:33:44 > Dr. Peat that you’re very anti – so the membrane pump idea saying that actually cells are very fluid and elastic and they flow and they move and they make space between the cells for things to enter and exit and actually this is a much better and holistic approach to the physiology of the cell. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Yes, wasn’t the cell membrane theory just brought about by big pharma so they can try to explain how their drugs are working? RAY PEAT: Well, sort of the – I think it really relates to neo- Darwinism and the genetic idea that they want to get away from the idea that life is somehow stable and so it's more like a machine which has to run to keep itself in the given state, but Gilbert Ling showed that even if you turn off the energy

00:34:46 > supply, the cell is stable for many hours. The sodium keeps going in and going out but the cell retains the lifelike imbalance between sodium and potassium and all of the lifelike properties don't require energy. They simply require the structure of the water and the whole living system. And there are just apparently an infinite number of ways of looking at that that confirm Gilbert Ling’s view but the absurd, the need to see things in this mechanical way makes people overlook the fact and believe absurd things. In an electron microscope course that I took, I decided to try different fixatives.

00:35:48 > I had [indiscernible] some of his publication and simply by using a different fixative , my cells were nothing but membranes. Membranes all the way through. And so I looked at the origin of how they got the first membrane, and in an old medical book 19th century ideas I saw that doctors treated ulcers and burns with osmic acid, osmic tetroxide to create what they called the false membrane and that was a standard medical term, so it was in the consciousness of the people who are working on cells. And the first preparations for electron microscopy of cells showed no membranes at all,

00:36:50 > but they believed that there had to be membranes, and apparently someone recalled that old medical concept of creating a false membrane to seal up a wound and they applied osmic acid to living cells and created in fact a membrane which was about 10 times thicker than they eventually decided they needed, so they refined the technique. Now they have approximately the right thickness of membrane. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. BRAD ABRAHAMS: And just how they’ve never been able to find one of their hundreds of pumps that they’ve invented. JEREMY STUART: And anytime there is a new thing that goes in and out of the cell, they have to create a new pump. Add a new pump to the list. RAY PEAT: If you wash all of the irons out of hair and dip hair in the serum, it picks up the proper irons and excludes sodium. So

00:37:52 > apparently, dead hair has all of the necessary pumps. JEREMY STUART: The working pumps. RAY PEAT: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. Well, let's move – go ahead. JEREMY STUART: I was going to say one more thing about Gilbert Ling that I think he is not more well-known because he has got an impressive academic career. He is really intelligent and he speaks at such a high level that it's pretty difficult to follow along sometimes what he is saying unless you have like degrees in biochemistry. And so reading his books is really challenging especially JEREMY STUART: for layman. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Even for a BRAD ABRAHAMS: scientist. JEREMY STUART: Yes. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Well, that's why we appreciate Dr. Ray Peat so much. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Exactly. JEREMY STUART: Exactly, yes. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Because you’re able to put all these pieces together and make a coherent picture that we can understand. ANDREW MURRAY: So let's go onto – let's see here. Dr. Michael Persinger. JEREMY STUART: He was one that was not initially on our list but someone that Brad and I both had mutual interest in prior to ever

00:38:54 > I think even hearing about Ray. But we were really surprised at how well he ended up fitting in, in the interview phase. And I guess he is listed as studying parapsychology but basically he has done a huge amount of work on the effects of fields on life on consciousness and he is most well-known for what’s now a very old experiment and if you just search for the God Helmet on YouTube, you'll see videos on that experiment showing electromagnetic stimulation of the right hemisphere inducing a sense presence in quite a few people. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay as if they perceive something. They perceive a person or… JEREMY STUART: Yes, and it's like a closed eye experience in a sealed room wearing a scooter helmet and for – is it

00:39:56 > an experience that’s induced in people who were seem to be sensitive to it and then totally filtered by their cultural eye, like if someone was highly religious, they might have some kind of god experience. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. JEREMY STUART: And so that – well, that's kind of I think what most people know him from but he has done decades of other more advanced works but he has lost to say about operating in the system doing controversial study and proposing radical ideas and doing good science and showing the effects. Basically I think it's really controversial to do anything with fields and he has done a lot of work showing how sensitive life is to JEREMY STUART: electromagnetic fields. ANDREW MURRAY: How many – just to ask a question here at this point, how many of these people that you’ve interviewed after this person Dr. Michael Persinger are marginalized? BRAD ABRAHAMS: All of them. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, really? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes.

00:40:58 > I'd say the one who is least marginalized is Gerald Pollack but even in his case, he is often... ANDREW MURRAY: He is trying find alone. BRAD ABRAHAMS: At risk of his – I mean, he has had his funding taken away from him and is always at risk about and as well as constant attacks from other professors that feel threatened. Michael Persinger seem to have carved out a niche for himself in the bitter north of Canada at a small university and I think that allows him to do what he wants to do and have the facilities that he needs to BRAD ABRAHAMS: do it. ANDREW MURRAY: He doesn’t have the same introspection. Okay. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Because he is in Canada. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: Well, let's move onto the next person and that’s probably one of my – I’m probably more – I’m as drawn to this person as I am to Dr. Howard Hillman just because Dr. Howard Hillman is British but Dr. Fred Kummerow. He is 100 ANDREW MURRAY: years old now, isn't he? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: And he looks so good

00:42:00 > for his age folks. If people that are listening here, Dr. Fred Kummerow is 100 years old and I’m sure Dr. Peat will have something to say about him as well as both of you Brad and Jeremy but he was very into demonizing polyunsaturates a long time ago and his skin looks so good. You’ve met him ANDREW MURRAY: in person. What’s he like? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, it’s even – he looks even better than you’d imagine. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. BRAD ABRAHAMS: He has no age spots or the lipofuscin anywhere and his hair well grey. He has a full head of hair. It’s nice and soft. But nice full BRAD ABRAHAMS: set of teeth. ANDREW MURRAY: Did you touch his hair? BRAD ABRAHAMS: No, but it looked very soft. And he basically had for his – in adult life avoided any added polyunsaturated fats in his diet that I think is. ANDREW MURRAY: Tell us all about him. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Well, he is most recently known for success

00:43:02 > in his 60-year long tireless crusade against trans fats which is something that everyone sort of knows now that is bad for their health but what is not reported is he basically says very similar things about the polyunsaturated fats and when we told him – so he is quite old and he's not really connected into the modern health world. When we told him that fish oil is sold as supplements and people drink flax oil, he literally like physically recoiled knowing the harm that it can do to health and it has caused some people to die young. And yes, it actually horrified him that people are like it’s a billion-dollar industry that all it's doing is harming your health. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, it’s pretty sad, isn't it? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: Go ahead. Is there anything else you want

00:44:04 > to say about Dr. Fred Kummerow having met him and then maybe I’ll ask Dr. Peat what he has to think about him? BRAD ABRAHAMS: No, he is just – it's inspiring to see – he is getting older and recently in a wheelchair because of a swimming-related accident at ’97, so it’s ages turned to take it’s toll at 100 for him but he is still doing active research at the lab and working on some novel compounds related to Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases that have to do with oxidization of the polyunsaturated fat. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And I just wanted to let our listeners know that if you visit this website, www.perceivethinkact, you can see a short video clip of all of these doctors we’re talking about this evening. I don’t know if that’s been mentioned but… ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. JEREMY STUART: And just for some JEREMY STUART: context on the website. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, please do. ANDREW MURRAY: Go ahead. JEREMY STUART: Perceivethinkact.com is our –

00:45:06 > it's just like the journal of our – it's our journey of making the film, so it's the production journal and in chronological order it has a post for each of our shoots with every subject we've had and pictures and videos from the shoots. BRAD ABRAHAMS: And I think also important to note that we are not finished shooting. We've only really shot about 30 to 40% of BRAD ABRAHAMS: the material. ANDREW MURRAY: Really? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, there is a lot of people that we still want to BRAD ABRAHAMS: interview like. ANDREW MURRAY: How you’re going to get them all into a one and a half hour DVD? It’s going to be compendium, ANDREW MURRAY: isn't it? BRAD ABRAHAMS: The magic of BRAD ABRAHAMS: editing. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, editing. Yes, I’m not too sure how you’re going to cut enough out to get it all into a small movie without cutting out some very good information but anyway, I’ll leave that to you guys. You guys are the film pro, so I’ll leave it to you. But let's talk a little bit more then. I’ve got a couple more subjects and then we can – actually yes, I wanted to ask Dr. Peat. Dr. Peat I don’t want you just to be on the sidelines. I know you’re probably fairly

00:46:08 > happy but hopefully not too tired. What do you have to say about Dr. Michael Persinger from your experience and/or your work? Where has he led you if anywhere in ANDREW MURRAY: his journey? RAY PEAT: Well, my interest in fields went way back. My brother was a radio ham and had lot of electronic equipment from, I guess, the age of nine or so had the opportunity to play with. And so the electrical properties of all of my acquaintances seeing how ageing had affected the conductivity and so on kept me constantly aware of the electrical magnetic properties of organisms. And in 1968, I went to Russia largely to talk to a

00:47:10 > man working in what he called a magnetobiology as opposed to biomagnetics. He concentrated on the effects of fields on organisms rather than the fields produced by the organism. And one of my very first experiments at the university after I got back was with a strong magnet that my brother made for me and looking at it’s effect on a crab nerve and I could see that just the presence of a strong magnetic field apparently affected interpreted it as affecting the structure of the water. The latent period, there was a delay between stimulation and reaction in the presence of magnetic

00:48:12 > field. And I also paid attention to the fields that I produced electrical fields that would some of the things like a millivoltmeter I couldn't operate because my field would from about a foot away, they would go off scale, so my lab partner had to handle the knobs on those things. ANDREW MURRAY: So all very interesting actual practical experimentation showing that fields do not just certainly but grossly effect nerve impulses and/or electric activity in the body and that’s been a lot of the basis for your outcry, if you like, against radiation and x-rays and all the other visualization techniques that are used in medicine that’s being very harmful. RAY PEAT: Yes, very subtle fields

00:49:14 > have very big effects on organisms. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. What about to – don’t wanted to take too long with that one, but how about Dr. Fred Kummerow and his background in trans fat, trying to ban trans fats? RAY PEAT: The trans fats normally occur in butter as an intermediate stage and the conjugated linoleic acid is the next step in shifting the unsaturation. And at the very beneficial effects of conjugated linoleic acid I think are because they blocks some of the toxic effects of the normal linoleic acid and other polyunsaturated fats. So even though cow’s milk and butter contains some trans fats,

00:50:16 > they also contain the beneficial next step, the conjugated form of RAY PEAT: unsaturated fat. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, and Dr. Kummerow’s criticism is more about the artificially created trans fats rather than the naturally dairy and other BRAD ABRAHAMS: one. ANDREW MURRAY: He has got nothing against butter? BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes, he likes the butter. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, there is all about the wholesale production and of trans fats and pumping those into the food ANDREW MURRAY: chain. JEREMY STUART: Yes. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes. Okay, well, so people got 10 minutes left here and time goes so quickly unfortunately but just want to let people that are listening know this is Ask Your Herb Doctor KMUD 91.1 FM. We’ve interviewed Dr. Raymond Peat thankfully for quite a while and he has spoken on many different subjects and he has mentioned many different eminent scientists in that time and that fortunately the step has been made where these two gentlemen filmmakers that we’re

00:51:18 > interviewing now have actually gone and interviewed these eight scientists and they are actually talking about interviewing quite a few more, but they are in the process of producing a documentary and they do have a very good clip, a taste of things to come if only people will go there and see what’s going on. Their website is www. perceivethinkact. com. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: And the name of the documentary that’s in progress is On The Back of a SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Tiger. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay, so let's just go onto Danny Roddy and his background. He is probably the only non-doctor so far, isn't he? JEREMY STUART: So far, yes. There is sort of two sides to the film and we focused so far on the scientists but the other piece is what we’ve been calling the health secrets, people who have used this information to empower themselves and take their health into their own hands. And he is someone who has had his own health journey than now he is, I guess, you can call him a health blogger. His main focus

00:52:20 > is on hair loss specifically. ANDREW MURRAY: Interesting. JEREMY STUART: But he is, I think, probably read almost anything that is available that Ray has JEREMY STUART: written ever. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. JEREMY STUART: And he has got no formal academic background but he has learned an incredible amount on his own and I think really had a huge journey learning to understand his own sort of metabolism and stress and… ANDREW MURRAY: And he has applied this to himself and this is being something kind of groundbreaking moments where he is wow. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Exactly, yes. He has been on I think the roller coaster that a lot of us can relate to trying to solve your own health problems and thankfully he has come out on top with – and now able to connect with people, I think that's why he connects so well with people is he has been where a lot of people

00:53:22 > are now and has the gift of taking those very complex scientific theories and translating them, so anyone BRAD ABRAHAMS: can understand them. ANDREW MURRAY: Yes, good. I mean that’s always been the challenge, isn't it. Science is sometimes so chewy, it’s a lot to get your teeth into sometimes and sometimes the language is almost a different language and therefore it needs a translation to put it into a context of everyday language that people can truly understand it. That’s what we try and do Dr. Peat because sometimes he is very scientific sometimes and other times doesn’t sound quite so difficult ANDREW MURRAY: to understand but. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Well it depends who he is talking to. Sometimes when it was just you and Dr. Peat on the radio show, you guys got little carried away in science because you’re talking to each other. ANDREW MURRAY: Anyway. SARAH JOHANNESEN MURRAY: Pardon my interference there but. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay, so you actually went and interviewed Dr. Peat. Dr. Peat he is probably the unwitting star of the show but you interviewed Dr. Peat here and obviously you got to share with him and he got to share with you and what I can gather is that again I think he is

00:54:24 > kind of unifying the theories of all these different scientists and applying it to health and the perspective of health and kind of meeting the challenges of the way health and medicine is working or not working in this day and age where people and how dogma is just so entrenched as is the ego I think in the science community that it fails to see sometimes the obvious and doesn’t allow that ego to fall to one side to let the facts come through and then support them by being a little bit down on the edge of the field as it were. So you interviewed Dr. Peat and unfortunately I know we’ve only got five minutes left but let's, you can talk briefly about Dr. Peat but let us have a little bit of time just to remind people where they can find out more about you because you’ve got a great film that you’re putting together. So Dr. Peat, very briefly you got a couple of minutes here I think. JEREMY STUART: So well, one of the thing about the working scientists and people

00:55:26 > who have spent their life in science is they focus on a little tiny area and they are not usually fully aware of the larger context that they maybe helping to expand. And so I think… Ray’s work kind of puts all of these people into a paradigm that all makes sense together into a much more holistic view. BRAD ABRAHAMS: And, really, what is the worth of all of this scientific inquiry if you can’t apply it practically to people’s health and nutrition. And I think that’s where nearly everyone we’ve interviewed somewhat misses the mark, in that they don’t think about it that way. They don’t think – well, how does this apply to me. JEREMY STUART: They’re looking down a microscope. ANDREW MURRAY: Exactly. BRAD ABRAHAMS: Yes. Yeah. And that’s where one of the many realms where Dr. Peat’s work resonates with us and so many other people. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: And I also think that Dr. Peat helps people take their health into

00:56:28 > their own hands and encourages them and gets them to start looking at what do you feel like after you eat that food or what do you feel like after you do that. And that is so important because we are the ones that know ourselves the best. And a doctor teaching a patient to do that is very, very contrary to the authoritarian medical system we have today. JEREMY STUART: And it’s funny. It’s kind of surreal being on your show tonight because your show, it’s one of the few resources to hear Dr. Peat talking on so many different subjects. And Brad and I both have spent so much time listening to your recorded shows as research for the film. ANDREW MURRAY: Yeah, interesting. I didn’t even… JEREMY STUART: Yeah. We’re finally on JEREMY STUART: the other side. ANDREW MURRAY: I didn’t even know this about three days ago, folks. Anyway, I’d heard about Brad and Jeremy in early – I think late 20 13. And they said what they were going to do and I was like,

00:57:30 > okay, great, sounds like a great idea. And we went backwards and forwards a few emails, but we never – we never got to actually meet or talk. And then the next thing was they’ve done it. So I take my hat off to you. And I hope – and I know that you probably really enjoyed it. And I think you’re going to certainly exceeds most people’s expectations. And I really wish both of you the very best in your work. JEREMY STUART: Thanks so much. ANDREW MURRAY: And also in getting the funding that is kind of necessary here to put this together. JEREMY STUART: And the first – the very first post, if you go to our website, pursuitthinkact. com has a link to the Kickstarter campaign where you can donate, order, share around with friends and family. ANDREW MURRAY: And I know it’s been pretty good, so that’s a good sign. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: And lastly, Dr. Peat, could you – can you comment on the film that Jeremy and Brad are producing? ANDREW MURRAY: In about a minute. RAY PEAT: Well, the bits that I’ve seen, it’s very much fun to watch.

00:58:32 > Those people – I had seen – I spoke briefly to Gilbert Ling in 1971. It’s good to see newer stuff about him and the others. ANDREW MURRAY: Well, if it wasn’t for people like you, Dr. Peat, and all the people that Jeremy and Brad have actually gone and seen and video-ed and gotten real life footage of, it wouldn’t be able to reach people. And people wouldn’t get to know about such alternatives. So in keeping alternatives alive, I thank all of the three of you for being here. And you, Dr. Peat, I didn’t know even know you were going to be on the air, but thanks so much. RAY PEAT: Okay. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: Thank you for all your time. JEREMY STUART: Thank you, everyone. ANDREW MURRAY: You’re very welcome. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. So until the third Friday of next month, my name is Andrew Murray. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: My name is Sarah Johannessen Murray. ANDREW MURRAY: And we can be reached 1-888 -WBM-HERB Monday through Friday or any time, in fact, people just want to contact us for whatever it is. So our website also

is www. westernbotanicalmedicine.com. And don’t forget, perceive, think, act. So that’s the worse where you want to go, www. perceivethinkact.com. It’s really very interesting. You should see it. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: And Dr. Raymond Peat’s website is www. raypeat.com.