Dan Cox: Caffeine, Coffee & Mycotoxins

Video | Dave Asprey

00:00:00 > hey it's Dave Asprey with bulletproof executive radio today's cool fact of the day is that it takes about three or four years for a coffee tree to mature and start producing fruit and once it starts flowering it only produce about a pound of green coffee a year depending on region and altitude and soil and all that and it takes between three and four thousand coffee beans to create a single bag of delicious coffee so coffee is actually pretty rare special commodity but you already knew that because you listen to this podcast today's guest is someone special dan cox has been involved in just about every aspect of the coffee industry for more than 30 years and he's been on TV countless times talking about consumer trends pricing product handling he's also one of the few people on the planet you can go to for coffee legal matters and is

00:01:02 > actually part of coffee lawsuits when they need a legal consultant he's also been a three-term president of the specialty Association of America for coffee and the Specialty Coffee Association of America called a man of the year even so if you were to basically sum it up in just one sentence dan is it fair to say that your old-school coffee mafia is that accurate ah I am considered old school certainly um I hang out with a clan of notorious coffee aficionados that really believe this is still a pretty special product and that we're all pretty passionate about it since i have three companions that we've traveled the 19 different countries together and countless plantations and co-ops so i still really like what I do I'm very fortunate I love what I do I'm considered the top of my game but candidly I don't believe there

00:02:03 > is such a thing as an expert there's always something new to learn and sometimes I hear these outlandish claims that I go at first I say no way and you as I look deeper there's always possibilities of something new on the horizons and things happening that to make this still an incredibly cool occupation to work on coffee has changed enormously over the past 30 or so years and it's a it's fascinating because you were there since the first starbucks opened essentially you're involved with coffee from that time frame right yeah I was really lucky um in the United States coffee has been a mature product since really you know right after the Revolutionary War in the early 1900's turned the Sentry every town in the USA had a small coffee roaster that pretty much end with the emergence of cans coffee which had long shelf life and number two the emergence of supermarkets where people would go into one store to buy I baked goods and coffees and the

00:03:06 > other stuff you can get a new supermarket and it stayed pretty flare our high point in coffee consumption in the United States was nineteen sixty four or about seventy six percent of the people during three point two cups of coffee per day and then it died it started going backwards because of the emergence of sodas and the great marketing that the soda companies picked up so in the the coffee industry pretty much stuck with trying to attract existing coffee drinkers to change to their brand instead of enticing new coffee entrants into the industry which would be the teenagers starbucks came along and they also introduced the species called robustus to create price wars so consequently starbucks didn't introduce the robusta that was no no no no coffee industry just yeah the coffee industry in the late in the late 60s decided to fight the price wars so you had the Maxwell House the crafts the the folgers and they knew that people would

00:04:07 > come into a supermarket to buy a pound of coffee a week so whatever they put on deal they didn't feel there was a lot of loyalty in the brands and so in order to reduce prices one of the easiest things was to do was to reduce goods and the number one cost of goods was the Arab occur and so they introduced robusta beans and if you do it slowly over time it won't be nearly as noticeable and so the rise of great marketing and sodas the decline of great coffee meant that the industry was going backwards around late 70s early 80s the emergence of peet's coffee company in the west coast a great company based out of Oakland California and Berkeley California he was really the instigator and then starbucks picked up and starbucks did a great job of making coffee cool making it a cool occasion making it hit having although I laugh because starbucks is probably the number one or two user of milk products in the United States the

00:05:09 > getting a black cup of coffee at Starbucks is actually kind of hard people use a lot of additives and then in my old stomping grounds I was a first employee at a place called green mountain coffee roasters which we started in 98 1981 that that's ginormous just so people know green coffee Mountain Roasters is a billion-dollar coffee company right it's actually five no yeah exactly yes so number one there that's phenomenal so okay somebody has to be number one and i was very fortunate i took a chance and it was a husband-wife team and they hired me because I his friends been playing racquetball always a very competitive racquetball player so people oh we just lost audio for a second there I say that again people wet up audio is totally gone dit is your headphone unplugged are you loaded with an espresso yeah we had a little break in the show there for a minute there's my espresso it's looking kind of pretty pretty good crema yeah

00:06:12 > I'm excited actually the way the bulletproof upgraded coffee beans make espresso because they aren't specifically an espresso blend but it's very flavorful yeah we're working on getting an espresso blend out there but anytime you say blend you're getting coffee from multiple regions and it changes the the properties of the soil biome that was behind the coffee and it's one of those things I want to be very cautious up and make sure that I'm maintaining the standards of the bulletproof process there but we'll get into the a process that some of the specific questions about mold toxins later in the show I just happen to have an amazing opportunity the middle of the show to go pull a shot of espresso because we had a Skype problem so yes thank you I appreciate that thanks Microsoft for making such a stable product so you were telling us a little bit more about what happened with a green coffee green mountain coffee and sort of how you were an early guy there and progressing into some of the the history of how starbucks and how basic coffee became cool again

00:07:13 > and how there's just a ton of additives so what what's the latest sort of what what is third wave coffee and how is starbucks different than third wave coffee and what's the dunkin donuts starbucks thing so give me a little bit more and give people listening kind understanding of like the amazing business of coffee well the third wave is now being split into two directions and it's pretty pretty interesting because mmm starbucks is essentially looking for all of their growth to be overseas international pretty much Asia they are eight very Asia oriented right now are you men are you over there a lot then do you see what they're doing in Asia I don't go there but i am very cognizant of what they're doing over there in their plants um when you walk down any Street in a big city there's more Starbucks there than in New York City I swear yeah well again in Asia a you know a normal City for them can be four or five million so over here four or five million persons cities is

00:08:15 > Chicago so they have their their marketeers or so much greater than ours so Starbucks feels they've got the United States covered pretty much on two fronts retail in their own stores and retail in the supermarket's they'll continue to make some splash but reality is they're going overseas dunkin donuts which is a pretty interesting East Coast consumer East Coast retailer they've been about six thousand stores of which about 5,200 of them are east of the Mississippi so most people in the West Coast really don't know too much about dunkin donuts the other big player of course is mcdonald's McDonald's with 31,000 locations they decided two years or three years ago to get in get more serious about coffee and they've done a pretty good job elevating mainly through price and a better quality product that a dollar value their biggest problem right now is there is their biggest product is their cafe a

00:09:16 > frozen coffee drink and boy that is going really well for them so they're doing really well because the trick is selling a lot of coffee is so a lot of milk and a lot of sugar well that's so we are a fat cold sugar based society is if I was decaying what are the three big things we love fat we love sugar and we love cold and portioned and and then distribution so hence a sodas and any product that has a lot of fat in it the other part so the third wave now is the small stores the bluebottles the four barrels the people they want to get into making coffee literally dripped by the cup individual and what their what what trend that they're breaking which is unusual is we are so convenience oriented drive through time oriented that we we live in the air of blind speed the shorter the better so in a traditional take out drive through

00:10:20 > scenarios whether it's a whinnies or mcdonalds 90 seconds is the goal from the time you order to the time you drive away they want to do that 90 seconds that's pretty darn quick a minute 20 is the next one so to go into a store like blue bottle or for bail and I love for barrel in the in the Bay Area what will you local insya go in there yes I used to work a block away from there and I no towel that I had roasted all right yeah I've written about four barrel two it's a it's a great roaster in a cool environment to its its own amazing when I was there last spring and I don't really try to sharp shoot people and the good news is nobody knows who the hell I am and that's fine and so when I go in and I'll talk to their there server whether he's a barista or just somebody Hannon I'll ask him a few questions in this case they were serving three different Kenyan coffees and I asked him to describe the difference between the three and this guy was probably in his mid-30s he was really

00:11:21 > good at that so I was impressed that he knew the regions and he knew the differentiations between the Curia noggin from one area and and I said you know this somebody's doing some pretty good education there but the other thing is takes three minutes you place your order you go get a seat they either bring out to you come back so it's creating the scene of coffees meant to take time when you come here you're going to spend three to five bucks on a cup and you're going to really enjoy it but it's going to take time the exact opposite and the third wave that we see happening and happening in the supermarkets is single cup coffee dominated by the Keurig brand yeah and this is amazing none of us saw this coming so single cup has been around for at least 25 years but it was so poorly executed when it first entered we had since sale we've had pods and they were disaster because one the machines weren't very reliable and to the product wasn't for a reliable cured comes along

00:12:23 > and the first three years they bleed red ink trying to figure out how to make this thing work they start out in the office coffee industry switched over to retail and it's now holds first four of the top 10 selling coffee brewers the United States are curing and out of the top 10 they hold six positions out of the top ten that it so that's why I wanted to offers cartridge that could work in a Keurig machine and oh man the complexity of doing that unless you're some building dollar company it is really hard we we finally did it but it was you know an 18-month undertaking in order to try and make that happen um people forget that greenmount has 70 people in their R&D they have NASA engineers down in their Massachusetts headquarters and they are constantly looking at making this better there the old complaint was the coffee never tasted strong enough and strengthen this kept

00:13:25 > in this situation had a relationship to the amount of coffee you could physically get into a cup the temperature the grind and the time and so they initially had nine grams for a 30-second brew cycle then they went to 11 grams then they changed the cup in the view cup to 15 grams so it was a good move it's settled with the fact that environmentally all of these things are a disaster and they will fully admit that pound of coffee in a bag a one-pound bag you know one bag and you get about 50 to 60 cups out of it in inkay cops you get about 50 or 60 individual capsules that have to be thrown away and until recently we're not recyclable and so the industry recognized this is a disaster environmental that was one of my problems that the ones that I make are entirely recyclable and yes that was part of the 18-month challenge because I just don't want to make more trash than I have to I don't think it's it's good

00:14:27 > for the world right oh it's a disaster it's in here little Vermont and I think there are like three or four places in the United States Boulder Colorado berkeley california palo alto california in Burlington Vermont Portland Oregon to degree we consider ourselves in the leading edge of iron metal concerns and here we are I mean try to open a land a landfill in Vermont good luck we and yet the company realized we got to do something about this and so they've been struggling with this for years and they've got one solution but it's not near there yet it is it true that they're going to partner with the Eco homes people to fill the walls of homes with all the cartridges I'd listener you could put it in tires I'd be happy I don't care but if you could make home insulation I think they'd be open to anything we could do the new capsules are the new k-cups are made with pet number five plastic and out of the out of the view so there is a tearaway feature where you tear the lid and the

00:15:29 > filter comes off and then the self can be recycled but you have to do that also when the coffee is cooled so if you take it right out of the right out of the brewer and you try to do it there's a good chance it's going to it's going to rip and tear and you're going to coffee ground so you get a wait a minute and again going back to our nature we are not a culture that that revels in in things that take time we are speed oriented we're speed food oriented but it's a whole nother story and the thing that I find interesting is you used to walk down a supermarket aisle and there'd be a sign that says coffee and when you got in that coffee I'll there be cans of coffee then there'd be canisters or bins of whole bean coffee and then there are 1 pound bags of coffee now you're going down and you're actually seeing boxes of coffee and within the box of coffee are these single single capsules so and you're seeing whole beans within five years you will not even see cold being bulk coffee line priced in any supermarket in the

00:16:31 > United States those are opposed those are dying quickly one pound bags of ground coffee used to be just holding the ground coffee is now taking over and cans are going by the way for example folgers and but ten years ago invested tons of money in their new can it's a plastic it looks like a paint can for cripes x they this this this is what 43 million dollars worth of design get you so people can't wait to empty it out the coffee so they can use it as a paint can but they smade the switch recently and said all of their focus is going to be on single cup performance and so this is this huge deal huge deal craft is now getting into it so most of us never saw this coming and the other thing about americans which i love to disparage our fellow citizens and said we first of all we no matter how much you try to force us we refuse to learn the metric system it's just it's a foreign to us it feels

00:17:33 > corn to us we don't like it like let me enter something it's absolutely something that doesn't belong in the United States even though it's the language of science in its worldwide it doesn't matter so my point is people have no idea that 454 grams equals a pound a cough and and thank God because if they could ever figure out the math and what these capsules cost by the pound you would say there's no way but if you say well it's only 60 cents a cup yeah well I can afford 60 cents a cup if I go out to my local retailer is going to be between one and three dollars what a steal and then when you go wait a second how many cups do I get in a pound my god that's forty to sixty dollars a pound for coffee if n is more expensive it's in the joke of all of them is the number one product for expense wise in the market is starbucks via soluble coffee and a stick and from my perspective is the best soluble coffee on the market

00:18:35 > today and I have tested this well over 50 times and it's got regular soluble coffee done very well from Colombia primarily and it's mixed in with some about fifteen percent micro-fine ground coffee which actually gives it some mouth feel and some fragrance it costs a buck and there's three ounces there's three grams in it so if you do the math real quickly you go let me see 454 divided by three is 151 150 one time is one are you telling me this stuff costs 151 dollars a pound and the answer it's you betcha how many pounds of coffee does it take or how many grams of coffee to take to make one gram of soluble iced coffees that's about a three to one ratio okay got it but it's about a three to one ratio so their cost of goods as I figured out all in depending what the market is in any given day they may have maybe an depending on how much they want to amortize their research maybe they got ten bucks of caustic glutes into

00:19:36 > that and they're selling it for 151 no wonder they advertise the heck out of this of course so that's a super high margin product yeah now there are studies looking at what's in solubilized coffee and the ones that I'm familiar with that are looking specifically at mold toxins and coffee given that that's an area where I've spent a lot of time doing research show that on average there's twice as many mold toxins in the average instant coffee have you looked into that at all no I haven't looked into deaths that statistic mycotoxins in the plant world is ever ever yeah they're absolutely curler you can try to mitigate them if it's best as possible the first thing is to try to identify all identify the ones that can really do damage and is it obvious or is it something we have to dig deeper in but there are some there are some big offenders and then there are a lot of lesser ones but the reality is they're

00:20:38 > everywhere so the question is what is their level of toxicity and can we do anything about it yeah and that's importance the first thing you'd like to do is eliminate okay possible now if you can't eliminate them how can you best control them and that starts with a rigorous program of testing so if we look at something like okra toxin a mmm which is which is a pathogen and it's formed on the mold on the fungus of lots of different products but coffee it can be one of them especially coffee from Indonesia or coffee that's been on the water a long time from where it's produced to where it's consumed so when we buy coffee from Indonesia it's on the water at least six weeks to eight weeks and during that time it can be in a container that's closed but depending on and coffees hydroscopic so it can pick up moisture and with moisture you get mold with mold can come aqua toxin you

00:21:43 > can't have okra toxin without mold but you can have mold without ochratoxin yeah so you have to test it and in in Europe it's regulated by the equivalent of the FDA in Europe in the United States it's not regulated and the problem with the okra toxin is it's in lots of different things besides just coffee but it's not homogenous right and so you have to do more than just test one bag you have to in a depending on size of container between 250 and 300 bags per container so between 30 8048 42,000 pounds per container you can have hot spots with that and most Roasters do not want to take the time or the expense to do proper testing hmm um there is some thought that it gets roasted out at the super high temperatures and the answer is that's not true um hold on it's okay there's always people saying I the heat destroys mold doesn't it kill the mold I mean I know the answer this but tell

00:22:44 > people as a 30-year coffee veteran what's the deal here all pro-thaksin a is a stable compound like many things it's stable which means unless you get to super high temperatures in super high temperatures in three are about a thousand plus degrees anything less than that is just considered you know hot that's why Starbucks use it on their dark roast right as a thousand degrees oh yeah at least maybe 2,000 you know to get that chart effect you can't do it easily no no Starbucks we love you no no Starbucks like actually the darkest roasted coffee in the United States is petes um they did they roasted slightly darker but the range is traditionally 375 24 and 50 degrees Fahrenheit that is the range and then you got to throw in the time it takes anyways between 15 and 20 minute roast then you have to work working what's the moisture content of the coffee as it's coming in moisture content comes about four or five variables but if someone said you know the average rose temperature of coffee

00:23:45 > is 400 degrees for 15 minutes for a two-pound to bag roast of three and 50 pounds I'd say that's a pretty good generality but at those temperatures things are created acrylamides can be created but they can't be destroyed so you can't destroy ochratoxin a furin or some of the other mycotoxins at this temperature you can't be done this does not happen the spores are dead but the poison left by the mold that made this bores is not dead it was never live but it's the present and still biologically active okay yes and in the the other issue is because technology allows us to get further and further into the DNA of anything we can see things that used to be measured in parts per thousand parts per million parts per billion now in two parts per trillion but you do have to put that into the old paralysis Paracelsus a DC's

00:24:46 > net the poison is in the dosage and I truly believe in that and so if if I was to look at my food source and say my god almost everything I eat has the potential to be toxic eyelets coat you're right so let's just calm down and figure out what we need to test what's reasonable and what's not reasonable so when people come up and they figure out what I do and they said well god I drink 10 cups of coffee a day and I go well that's your problem you're not impressing me because you can consume so much coffee and is the issue the coffee or is the issue the caffeine caffeine again is another one of these stable compounds people think the coffee is roasted darker so it has less caffeine because it's been roasted out fundamentally absolutely not true not true it's a stable compound it's the same amount then you begin with then you ended with no difference now espressos a little bit different only because the

00:25:49 > throw weight is different so you have a very seeing an espresso the espresso you just drank look like it was about two ounces yes so we drink about one and a half to two ounces of espresso and that could have 80 to 100 milliliters of caffeine whereas an eight to 10 ounce drink of regular coffee may have a hundred 250 so because it's so highly concentrated it has more caffeine just because it uses more coffee but it does not have more caffeine by the pound it's the same amount so people but sometimes people also think because it tastes stronger it has more caffeine caffeine for the most part is tasteless and odorless until you get it in its purest form that you may not know the answer to this and I don't know no the answer to it I've always noticed that in espresso I feel it before like if I chugged in espresso and I chugged a room-temperature black coffee or something I'll feel the espresso speed my mind up faster than the coffee and I

00:26:51 > believe it's because the coffee essential oils are still intact and they help to escort the caffeine and some of the other phytochemicals into the brain better like that fat plus caffeine has a different effect than just caffeine have you seen anything about that as up was that part yes okay no no that's absolutely true caffeine is a phenomenal carrier of all sorts of things and it also gives a lot of people a sense of alertness a slight sense of energy and most of the studies I've looked at feel that the number one reason people drink coffee in the morning is for the caffeine it's not necessarily for the taste of the coffee so when you see it used in the pharmaceutical industry specifically medicines like aspirin it's not because the caffeine they feel is necessary a great additive what it is is a great carrier and it gets the other essential ingredients in the medication to very quickly just like the old product DMSO I don't know if you don't new with it is we should use yeah it was

00:27:52 > used in horses for recovery of horses right well that stuff you'd rub some of that on your shoulder and within like 10 seconds your breath would really smell differently and researchers said hmm how can that work so fast we better look at this because it could be a great carrier for other things so the the pharmaceutical industry obviously the soda industry is the number one user of caffeine in the world's pharmaceuticals soda industry because it has a slight amount of uplifting pneus to it and energizing certainly in coffee-producing countries now especially in Brazil they're using suck cafe lattes and cafe au lait s for children in in elementary school because it makes them more alert and they actually are proven to be better testers unbelie-- you would think oh yeah this is just a copy guy trying to sell more coffee I posted on Facebook a picture of my son drinking two ounces of proof coffee made with my you know mold

00:28:53 > talks and tested beans plus the grass-fed butter and the brain octane oil yeah my kids get it every morning they get about an ounce or two and you know what they feel great it makes it makes them happy they're not addicted they don't go hyper they they're just common focused and happy and I don't think I'm harming them in fact I know no and I don't think they're getting shorter they're not turning browner and they're not hyper running around beating on each other no I find that in the studies and I see studies all the time that the I think that publicity is turn the corner to where there are more positive attributes to moderation and coffee than negative ones they're certainly still some negative ones but the industry starting to say hey wait a second everything from colorectal cancer breast cancer Alzheimer's there's some stuff going on here that we need to look at closer so I have no problem my daughter's adult now but when she started drinking coffee and she's around

00:29:54 > 10 I think first of all I think she someone was slightly influenced by my wife and I um but secondly she liked it she just plain liked it and she liked the taste of it right so I didn't die I would give my kids coffee until they're older but when my daughter was one I said well I'll give her a black coffee because she was reaching for my cup and I figured you shall make a face and she had a fight her to get the cup ah that's a little unusual yeah I was surprised but they've just been like that so you know a couple tablespoons I'm I think it's fine yeah it's it's like I mean if your if your child doesn't like it they're going to tell you real fast they're just going to push away and say no way get it out of my face if they do like it usually I'll go back to put some milk in it and you don't have to go crazy with sugar but usually the first sip if it's somewhat diluted with some milk and certainly should be palatable so let's let's go back to you said that coffee have some positive things in my own research and experience has shown me

00:30:58 > that when I look at the list of negative aspects of coffee and I look at the list of negative aspects of old toxins that are commonly present coffee there's a shocking overlap there and that when I experience coffee that is I that is tested to be extremely low like you said there's you know there's a part / kazillion measure that I'm sure there's you know one of those in any coffee bean right because there's so many parts but when I drink exceptionally low mycotoxin coffee I feel different and i even have did a little study with executive function comparing two different coffees and showed that there was a difference in executive function between the two you mentioned earlier the european standards so they test using probably not the most accurate tests on earth but they test for okra toxin a which is one of the 27 different things that I look at in in the upgraded coffee beans but they test for that and they say all right this coffee isn't up to European standards and what is the current European Standard & parts per billion do you

00:31:59 > remember off the top good you see the three or five parts ok cool my research says it's five and it used to be eight but there it does change occasionally and I don't just get the latest update right away so five parts per billion very small okay so there's a container load of coffee they tested it it didn't make it where would it be tested in the coffee supply chain this is at a broker would be tested before it's shipped from the source country like well i mean the the best way to test it would be begin because mold can accumulate and start in route depending with the copies coming from is you want to test it as it left the port and you want to test it when it arrives importers will only the importers will only do what they're asked to do and then they're going to try the light but to pass that cost on to the roaster so if the roaster demands it the importer has two choices okay i'll test it but i'm in a charger for the test or no i don't want to go through the aggravation of testing it you're not big enough for me to do this

00:33:00 > need myself but in theory you'd want to test it just as it was loaded onto the ship and then you want to test it again paint on the length of travel on water once it got there but most Roasters i mean the most common way of testing over toxins through these was called limiter because it can be fluorescence we have it in our labs we have the capability of testing this it truly is a pain in the neck test to do oh my god you have to you have to extract from green coffee grinding green coffee it's like grinding mustard seeds all it does is gum up your grinder so you have to freeze it to begin with so if you got some liquid nitrogen around that works really well but not a whole lot of people have that so we freeze the coffee which makes the cell structure brittle and then we grind it and then we have to go through at least six phases of filtering it till we finally get about two or three mils of this colorless liquid that we put into a fluorometer

00:34:01 > and then 30 seconds later we get a result so it's about 65 minutes of prep for a 30-second test and that can cost anywhere between one hundred fifty to three hundred dollars to do it and until you automate it it's very labor-intensive know that test when you're doing it what's the sensitivity of it very sensitive okay got it I think that this thing if you're really going to look at this you want to go right back to the source and you want to figure out how can we create conditions that these things won't how can we grow this stuff that will that will lessen lessen the chance of it for me your threat of some kind of like well it's um it's yeah it's it's it's tricky it's really tricky but their you know their niches for everything I mean I look at now you know 15 20 years ago the organic cysteine organic supply and food to farm

00:35:05 > a farmer to table now the so we pay more for organic foods if we can have assuredness that it really is organic we like buying local so where you are there's a lot of opportunities but the thing that's really amazed me is why are our since the system so a sensitive to gluten all of a sudden so now we go down a supermarket and there are us of gluten-free products what's going on here I think I have a pretty good theory on that one gluten cross reacts with funny enough toxic molds and we changed our soil bacteria about 30 years ago by spraying a potent mutagen on it so we've been having these aspergillus mostly soil microbes that are typically harmless that have become less harmless that have also moved into our homes because they live basically anytime there's moisture in the home they produce immune stimulating molecules that have the same eight amino acid sequence that's present in gluten and kason and I believe that's one of the

00:36:08 > underlying reasons it's not the only one but it's one of the underlying reasons that we're seeing this explosion and I experienced it myself in the Palo Alto you know there was a toxic mold growing behind a dishwasher in a place where I was staying and when I got exposed to that my relatively minor gluten allergies just exploded and the same thing happened to my wife so it's a known thing it's just one of those complex systems out there and I'm a canary for toxic mold and that's why we can I drink a cup of coffee I can tell you if it's got I've had a cup of excellence coffee that tasted amazing it was you know blissful and orgasmic but 20 minutes later I'm like yep there's there's multi something in there yeah well I'm just amazed that the industry it bled by the big industry leaders the Kellogg's in the general food to the world General Mills of the world have realized that this segment of the population is asking for it so we better pay attention so my wife is a gluten sensitive and so consequently we go to a couple health food stores and she goes down that aisle now there are

00:37:09 > gluten-free pizzas I I have some some news for you down yet have you seen the studies about coffee cross-reacting with gluten no yeah there's actually a immune it's proven by one lab in one case but get this they used cheap instant coffee and there are a ton of people who don't drink any coffee other than I've created coffee because they react to it I'm the same way but when they drink a coffee that's tested for molds they aren't getting the base of the gut problems that they're getting from normal coffee and that can be a trigger for or immune sensitivity so if you're like the cellucor Crone side of things the quality of the coffee or drinking is a factor you knew that so how you react so I don't know if if your wife has paid attention to whether coffee is triggering any gluten allergies in her or whether it's triggering symptoms of gluten allergies but it's worth noticing well she switched years ago to decaf aah and she's a die-hard to dip two coupled ad cap drinker and she drinks the best

00:38:12 > decamp on the market that she can find and she seems to be time I need to ship her some of mine if she hasn't tried it I didn't rise that she was doing that because I I mean what is the best one that you know of because I'll tell you I had I always get sick when I drink decaf coffee because they use low quality beans because they know they're ruining them anyway so you found a super high quality one if anyone on earth would know there are you have to look you have to look far and wide to find them and they're usually small micro Roasters they have are willing to pay a lot more for coffee um I find if you're the big brand the one that's the most common right now that I think is pretty good up an espresso decaf does a really good job miss Bryant this is a progressive and they you know it's a it's a subsidiary of Nespresso and of Nestle and so consequently its hide they're making a lot of money so they do a pretty good jobs sourcing coffee especially for the DPI river or oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah

00:39:14 > they do it I would say from a capsule standpoint for dark roast there are the leader in the field as they should be because of taste taste alone so the verismo by starbucks has been less than successful they're not selling very many of those machines the revo from Green Mountain Coffee is kind of dead in the water not selling on very many to make espresso-based beverages but Nespresso still leads the pack by far and it's not a consistent high quality high flavor decaf yeah yeah yeah I'm going to ship you some of our our decaf skip it away the reason is that i take the original tested beans and our roasting is in portland we ship it over to vancouver Swiss water process and ship it back so it's a very short ship time because caffeine is also an antifungal agent in the coffee yeah so it tends to be it faculty it's the only decaf that I don't react to and I've engaged do you ship it over to the plant and the Swiss water plant yeah absolutely yeah and it's

00:40:15 > right about six hours right begin port of vancouver and back is easy no i went to that plant in um September and i am very highly positive about the plan I've been to the plant I've seen it before in the after I know the management it's the real deal I think they're probably one of the best decaffeinated plants in the world they do a really nice job yeah that is amazingly validating because I don't have the experience to to have looked at those different plants like that but they impressed me with just the quality and the whole process so I I wanted to make a decaf that not only tasted good but also was very low in toxins because the studies that I've come across where they look at levels of various toxins in decaf not the ones that come from chemical decaffeination like the the solvents but actually ones from the fungal toxins they're phenomenally higher because usually throw robusta beans your throats yeah well it means because you know you're ruining the beans baidu caffeinating

00:41:16 > them right well they you know it's the old crap in crap out yeah and so how it is same thing with soluble coffee if you're a taste soluble coffee of a lot of people for many roaster said well it's like taking your car to the demolition derby what's the point so don't take a good car take a crappy car I said well if you can't possibly have good tasting coffee if you start with bad beans so now it's the processes are there better ways of making to caffeinated coffee over the year and the answer is yes and the Swiss water people do it in small batches and I think there's something to be said for that versus a continuous decaffeination process and its really starts with the water and the water that comes out of its caffeination plant should be drinkable it should be purified that much through the system that it can be recycled and drinkable so when I've been to decaf Clanton and switzerland and germany many in France in Mexico in the United States and in Canada and that's the first thing I'll say is I want to see

00:42:17 > the water that comes out of the last batch and I want to taste it if they won't allow me to do that I know this problem Wow okay that's a pretty high standard yeah they haven't cleaned it enough to be able to use it in the next batch and it takes time and it takes money to do that takes a lot of money to do that to constantly filter filter filter active carbonation myectomy carbon is the answer but it's a lot of people just don't want to take the top it's funny you mentioned active carbon if I'm in a situation where I'm going to drink coffee that isn't line and like probably ninety percent of the time when I go out there I can tell like my brain doesn't do the things I'm used to it doings and when I do that and yeah I'm a delicate flower whatever but apparently other people have a slight reduction in mental capacity versus you know say like feeling as bad as I would but there's they're noticing like they don't have a dip in energy later but I take the coconut charcoal capsules which is essentially it's almost identical to the

00:43:18 > carbon that's in those water filters although it's a finer particle size I take those if I know I'm going to be in a situation like a coffee tasting i'm going down to Costa Rica to work on expanding the number of plantations who can do those the pre not pre harvesting steps the way I'd like them done and I know I'll be tasting stuff that's not as clean as I want so I'm going to be popping charcoal all day long to filter it in the stomach yeah carbons a a very good catch-all for a lot of good stuff so i might be thinking about i think i'll swallow a brick out a day I said well you know that's not the worst thing in the world that can happen to you yeah at all facture that for internal yeah it's just worth using it and if I'm going to be drinking strange coffees I will do that and all right one question yeah we talked earlier about this European coffee you test it before it goes onto the boat you test it when it comes off so now we're somewhere at a port in Europe and we tested coffee and the coffee's bad it doesn't meet European standards what do they do with that coffee well we don't like to talk about that and I can't tell you exactly

00:44:21 > what happens because I don't live in Europe but if it's written into the contract and if I was a European roaster I would write it into the contract so the first thing the roaster would say is it's reject about and it's your obligation importer to replace it with like coffee without the toxins obviously so then the importer has to figure out what do I do with this it's never going to be shipped back to the producing country that's laughable so now they have to sit there and say okay it got rejected because the the level of whatever the mycotoxin is too high now do i resell it to someone else do I retest it or do I just dump it and because and then this transportation issues involved so if they want to try and sell it to another roaster that doesn't have it in their contract they can do that that's the first app try to sell to somebody who doesn't care about the mycotoxin if that doesn't work then they could sell it to other countries that don't have regulations and in our

00:45:24 > country that's called dumpy you're intentionally selling something to us that you know has a problem whether we have a regulation or not and that's not really cool that doesn't go that doesn't fly very well even if it's sold at a discount but there are many many Roasters that are I would say less than ethical and if they have a chance to pick up something that is a lot less expensive that's unregulated they'll do it it's very simple they'll just do it is there any is there any possibility that the companies with the coffee that they know has a problem in that country might not notify the buyer in the US about of course of course I will because it's not regulated why would I intentionally tell you oh by the way the coffee that you're buying was rejected in Belgium because it had an all-pro toxin level to high when they're saying well these people don't care why would I even tell yeah yeah yes and if you were at a US company and you had even say internal standards you could buy some

00:46:25 > higher talks and coffee for less and have some nominally lower talks and mix them all up to get the average parts per billion down yeah I mean it's I don't think it's being done I'm obviously not at the at the large Roasters I don't think that's being done intentionally but i have no proof there's a lot of there are a lot of crooks out there right that way but that's why I think dealing with people that are incredibly reputable is the is the rule of day but though coffee is incredibly fraudulent for example there is more Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee sold every year than is grown there is more Colombian coffee 100% Colombian coffee sold every year then is grown so people same thing with kona coffee so there are a lot of unscrupulous people that's the fish come on let's fish industry is right for this right now you go and you think you're buying Chilean sea bass good luck so we are very open to were very gullible and

00:47:26 > so in this case you've got to know your retailer and you've got to ask your retailer to back it up with some snow simple requests we don't want to bust your chops too much but if you're saying this is this I need to see your authenticity wine old wine is I just finished reading a book the vintner of the billionaire's vinegar it's fantastic story about how how these people pay decisions of dollars for old bottles of Jeffersonian wine that were never tested and you wouldn't even know and most people don't want to open the bottle anyways but what's the provenance how do you check on the provenance for some of this stuff very difficult very very difficult it turns out you're not just a coffee expert right you're a cigar guy and a wine guy as well and a Harley guy in a yeah well I like the finer things in life right I got to the stage where I was very fortunate that I had the ability to make some some choices and how I want to spend my time and who I want to spend my time with and the

00:48:28 > cigars and coffee as a natural so when the cigar craze 1990 hit I was among the first to really get involved in that and marvin shanken at shanking communications has done a wonderful job cigar aficionado and i did a lot of did a lot of coffee tastings with that magazine wine i started in wine club with two of the guys in the late 80s and i would say i'm a sophomore but I'm a pretty educated sophomore I just saw the the video psalm somm which is one of the best videos on how difficult is become a Master Sommelier and so I love wines I'm trying to teach my daughter the difference between really good wine and just average wine so wine will be a lifelong passion a little bit of speed yeah I in that when I got divorced the first thing I did after my divorce was and when I'm bought a motorcycle so and I had I had 25 very good years of that and I I still do one trip a year with

00:49:29 > the guys and we I sold my bike about 10 years ago and I bought a Porsche so I moved up and do the four wheels and but a bunch of us I go out with Ben and Jerry are good friends of mine and a bunch of other business owners and we do one trip a year we pick a part of the united states that we haven't been to we fly out there we rent bike so last year we did the coast of oregon incredibly cool started in portland went all the way down to the coast of California turn came back in Crater Lake area bend end up in Mount Hood it was just incredible so um but but i think my motorcycle days are coming to a one trip a year 5-6 days on a bike it's but it for my age now but the Porsches you know I can do this for a long time yet when you're on a road trip like that do you stop in small towns and drink coffee of questionable origin I wished option copy but we we try to find single chains we try to I

00:50:32 > have to admit I go in and within the minute I could pretty much scope out if these people know what they're doing or not yeah and it is fun there are a few chains they you know if I have to all stick with for example I happen to be a fan of panera bread caribou coffee they both because I know a lot about where their coffee comes from they do a pretty good job Pizza course does a fantastic job ooh but um I'm looking for the four barrel types yeah that's my my pride and joy is to find those little-little places in the middle of nowhere it takes it pretty seriously and the odds of getting a cup of coffee that won't basically knocked me out the way a lot of coffee does are higher at those places and I wrote a blog post one that said you walk in the door and count piercings and tattoos and the more of them you find the better your odds it is accurate no I would say no I would say that's enough that's a really good tale but I would not say that that's necessarily indicator of good coffee it might be a certain type of cult or craft but uh yeah I know I know I don't

00:51:35 > necessarily subscribe to that theory I and it's fair not to because it's not always true it depends on the part of the world obviously yeah IIIi do when I travel I travel a lot I drew my own I bring yeah I bring the equipment and I do it because I just got used to feeling a certain way all the time but I will go into those places and sometimes I'll sample it but I used own drink the whole cup because unless it feels right i can tell you if it's going to knock me out so no i agree with you that many times especially in foreign countries it's kind of sad that i will bring coffee with me to a coffee producing country because i know they export their best and they don't have the right brewing technology and equipment and it's kind of sad it's just kind of sad but it happens all the time I just came back from a little island in the Caribbean called Culebra with my family and this is a great family vacation we ship coffee there before we get there and it's kind of weird but that's what we do

00:52:36 > I was on roatan which is similar in coffee growing part of the world and i went on a coffee buying expedition not to buy coffee for bulletproof or just cuz i wanted a cup of coffee and i didn't have a grinder I had my beans but no way to grind them yeah and at the end of a whole day of riding around in a taxi and doing backroom deals I didn't end up with any coffee that was drinkable like in fact it had sugar mixed in with it yeah instant but i did buy a mortar and pestle and I ground my own beans on the cruise ship later that night it was terrible but the things we do for coffee right no it's very common to see a new line of to go coffee brewing and grinding equipment from the Aeropress to these hand grinders they're everywhere hi it's Dave again thanks for listening to the hundredth episode of the bulletproof executive podcast and thanks for making it the number one rated show on iTunes I started this podcast with the same intention that I had when I started the bulletproof blog itself which was that I could offer a ton of

00:53:38 > free information that would help you supercharge your body upgrade your brain and live in a state of high performance it took me about 20 years and three hundred thousand dollars to learn how to do things that aren't supposed to be possible and then to use them to be a better entrepreneur a better husband a better father and it's not really fair that I had the opportunity to spend that much money to learn these things no one told me how to do it and I thought if I shared the knowledge that I was lucky enough to come across it might help other people since the show began over two years ago I've heard from some of the world's leading experts on topics of mind-body diet and most recently even coffee and so have you at the end of each show I ask each gas to question what are your top three recommendations for kicking more ass and being bulletproof every single day in honor of bulletproof executive radio Centennial episode here are some of the best answers from our top podcast episodes thanks again and please enjoy and I look forward to seeing you on one hundred and

00:54:39 > first episode all right number one someone was asking me about this today I was just on another interview they're like so why is eating well important deal with your nutrition like be serious about diet and nutrition so following kugimiya has actually been liberating in that it's been able to free up a lot of time for me it's because it's necessary for everything that happens after that everything that you do with your body the way you think the way you perform your health down the road that the number one factor in that is eating well don't follow somebody else's diet follow your own diet and do they do the work that's required to figure out what that is even though it does take longer than just following a cookie approach and you will not be sorry because you'll have that for the rest of your life you've got to sleep you are not a special flower we don't sleep for long periods of time we know what happened you will implode downtime is extremely important and a lot of people get so caught up in their jobs and don't take time they don't take constructive

00:55:42 > what i like to call creative downtime so i would say sleep it would be number one if you want to kick butt because if you're not sleeping you're not kicking butt almost certainly try to disconnect from time to time take a walk every day everybody needs to have creative downtime you know scheduled into their day in one form or another all your desire even when everyone else thinks you're crazy number one you are never better than when you're challenged that's one number two is expressing gratitude and I would say that I think the key to happiness is staying curious through your entire life to the things that you you think that you shouldn't do know that you think are bad or dirty I think you do them in and see what you learn laughs a lodge I said at the end you know it did so it's all funny it's all very funny it's called a

good good joke drink drink more coffee drink wine and drink scotch relax and don't worry about it life is grand now the end of the day should be kind of a look back a review of all the positive things that happen and so many people kind of obsess about the you know what they'd consider the failures and that's not very helpful and so we want to essentially review everything that happens recapitulate those experiences and just find the positive the silver lining and everything that happened during the day you