Stew Friedman: Be Real, Be Whole, Be Innovative

Video | Dave Asprey

00:00:00 > hey everyone its Dave Asprey with bulletproof radio today I've got an old friend dr. Stu friedman from warden university he's a professor of management and he was one of my professors about a decade ago he's a leading expert on leadership development work-life integration and an early version of actually being bulletproof he focuses on measuring and monitoring what you get back for the energy you spend throughout your day throughout your career throughout your relationships and quantifying this and then using that as a way to tell you how you're doing he taught me the techniques in his book called total leadership be a better leader have a richer life which was published back in 2008 his most recent book and the reason he's on the podcast today is called baby bust new choices

00:01:01 > for men and women in work and family stew welcome to the show it's great to be here Dave thanks so much for having me it's been a good 10 years since we talked but I was really impacted by your class where you had me sit down with a group of my peers and figure out where my energy was going and what I was getting back for it mm-hmm how many people have been through that program in the last decade would you estimate ah well at the Wharton School a couple thousand and then in organizations and trade associations around the world tens of thousands the book is now in six or seven different languages and I give talks and workshops all over for government agencies and private and public sector organizations so not not quite as intensively as in my Wharton course which you know as you know it takes you through every exercise in the book and you do a lot of work really

00:02:06 > reflecting on what matters most to you connecting with the people who matter most to you and then doing these experiments that are designed to achieve what i call the four-way win improved performance at work at home in the community and for yourself so even in the short time that I spend with groups save them just for a couple of hours I make sure that everybody comes out of that with a game plan and a scorecard for what they can do to to pursue a meaningful for way win in their own lives I can say it really helped me and that's probably one of the reasons that the New York Times says that you've inspired rock store adoration from your students that was I don't know who said that but um you know this is a process that we created when I was at Ford Motor Company so after 15 years of doing practice research consulting teaching on work-life integration and leadership development the CEO of Ford Motor Company asked me to join them to help try to transform

00:03:07 > the culture that company so I was the the the senior executive responsible for leadership development from 99 to 2001 and our team created a method that really helped people to focus on what matters most of them and then to do something about aligning what matters with what they actually do every day and when you give people a structured method for doing that and the secret sauce peer to peer coaching and you started with that like you said he said that i SAT you down with a few of your peers well that is really the magic is having the accountability pressure and the support from peers who are doing the same thing as you are except of course their story is different because it's their story not yours very but you're helping them and they're helping you there's magic in that and and by providing an opportunity for people to do that they get a lot out of it if they put something into it you having a that community and that way of getting a read on what's happening keeps you from deceiving yourself which is something that I learned about myself I'm pretty prone to do well that's

00:04:12 > something that is extremely common which is why coaching and the kinds of things that you provide the tools that you provide with that you're bulletproof uh they're all about how you help people to main some kind of you know accountability you know to themselves and and that is a really really hard thing to do and it's it's it's actually underestimated I think in terms of hud the difficulty of maintaining a commitment to something that you want to do that's a change it it also drives you to pay attention to what you're supposed to want to do and what you actually want to do because there can be a very big gap between those two and particularly for men it becomes sort of like you have a family Duty that says you have to do this but then it doesn't create happiness because you keep putting you know you put effort into that domain but then you don't get a return for it and eventually you realize it's not happening it might take

00:05:13 > on your new book on baby buzzed yeah is that you may have taken some of what you saw from these coaching people and that inspired you to write the book because you talk about why men and women are opting out of parenthood or why they're not but I wanted to really focus our interview today not on the total leadership techniques and by the way if you haven't read total leadership by the book it's awesome and it has all the space you need but let's talk about baby bust what changed with work and family over the past two decades when you've been studying it so um in the late 80s I was inspired by the arrival of my first child to to undertake a you know systematic research and a exploration of the world of practice to find how people integrate the different parts of their lives for mutual gain and to start research on Wharton students and alumni to find out from them you know what are their career aspirations what are their aspirations at home in the community for themselves personally and how do they

00:06:15 > foresee you know their conflicts and and the opportunities for mutual gain among the different parts and you know just what are their plans and their values and so we wanted to study the life interests as they evolve of Wharton students and alumni so 1992 is the first year that we started doing surveys and in 1992 one of the service we did was to ask hundreds of questions of the graduating class of nineteen ninety-two the undergrads 22 year old seniors and 490 or so of them completed this very extensive questionnaire and then we surveyed some other classes and ba classes alumni I wrote some books and articles about this and then went to Ford in the late 90s came back focused my attention on the total leadership work and then as 2012 was nearing the horizon I became clear to me that now is

00:07:17 > the time to capitalize on this investment we've made long ago in the past by doing a longitudinal study to compare the class of nineteen ninety two with the class of 2012 and to ask the members of the class of nineteen ninety-two to tell us what's actually happened with your life so that we could see how what they said actually turned out so the baby bust book this book right here is the story of what we discovered when we compared the class of nineteen eighty-two the Gen Xers at the time of their graduation with the malays class of 2012 at the time of their graduation and we also supplemented the surveys with a bunch of interviews including videotaped interviews which were going to be posting on our website shortly so what what screamed off the screen when I started looking at that the results was the comparison between the Gen Xers and Millennials with

00:08:20 > respect to the question do you plan to have her adopt children for which the response alternatives were yes probably not sure probably not and Mel in 1992 seventy-nine percent say yes in 2012 forty-two percent said yes wow I thought now that can't be right and it turns out it's right and so the my focus then became on trying to explain this extraordinary drop in the in 10 mentions of people with respect to starting a family with children in it and the the book goes into some detail on why it is that people are much less likely to planning to have kids now and it's interesting that the reasons for men and for women are quite different and then the back half of the book is what do we need to do about this from a social policy point of view from a an organizational practices point of view and then from the point of view of the

00:09:21 > individual and families what do we need so that's what the baby bust book is about will take us through it what's the mindset for men and then what's the mindset for women like what are the differences you came across so um you know it's not a little gloom and doom here i should say most people hear this result may think well what's going on you know the world is ending well we won't have people taking care of us when we're old and indeed those are real risks um and for both men and for women the desire to become a parent the idea of being a parent the value of parenting in one's life is still really really high most people think mother that's a part of life I want to experience what's drops is their their intentions to actually do it because so many don't see how they can so the key reasons for men are that they anticipate greater conflict between work and their family

00:10:23 > roles so they fully expect their spouses to be engaged in you know careers much more so than in the past they also are no longer seeing themselves as the sole breadwinner the Gen Xers men they thought of themselves as breadwinners the current generation of men don't write off they also are interested in being more fully engaged than their fathers were in the work of and the pleasures of being a father so they you put all those together and add into the mix that both men and women expect to work 14 hours more per week in the class of 2012 compared to the class of 92 that's huge by itself right so how many hours you expect to work on average 1992 58 class a 92 72 that's insane both

00:11:28 > loops by the way uh well 58 is a little more saying when you say yeah so you add all that together and on and on top of it for men uh you know if you care if you're carrying student debt that's also going to diminish your your plans for having kids not true for women but certainly for men so those are some of the key factors for men and as I say it's a little different for women so what do women think about this versus men that does this is shocking to me yeah well for for women the factors that are linked to you know reduced likelihood of planning to have kids are the more you see your life and career as adding social value you know to the world having helping other people the less likely as you plan to have kids so it's almost as if there's a choice between serving the family of humanity

00:12:31 > versus the family of your own creation with children another factor that I think we probably interest you is the issue of personal health so we ask how important is health to you and of course most people say it's very very very very important but there is some variation there and back in 92 if you as a woman highly valued your health is really very important to you then that was likely that was going to be linked to your interest in becoming a mother so health and motherhood aligned in 2012 what we find is a reversal of that of that trend so that young women today see motherhood as antagonists stick to their own personal health that is complete victory of marketing / reality what do you mean my my first book is called the better baby book and it's about epigenetics and the impact of

00:13:33 > environment on basically the genes of kids it's a program that my wife a medical doctor and I put together for our own kids to optimize their health in their brains over the course of their lives yes the research is very clear if you're a woman and you have kids particularly when you're younger as in 25 or under your odds of getting all sorts of cancers drop dramatically yet what we're hearing is that women because the medicalization of the birth industry that they actually believe that having babies is going to be bad for them so to maintain their health they're going to not have kids Wow scary right when I have you know after finding this I had a number of informal conversations and focus groups with young women about this including my daughter who's 20 and is a pen sophomore and you know some of her friends and she was not surprised by

00:14:36 > this result and the attribution that many of the young women who I talked to about this said you know it's almost as if they'd rather be fit than pregnant so that there's you know part another part of the cultural changes have been the you know the keen interest in fitness you know above above other things in life and so you know it I was is very interesting what you what you what you and your wife have observed and very much consistent with what I see in these data so those are some of the findings for women there are some others but those are those are some of the key ones another one has to do with religion so we saw a great increase in the number of people who identified as agnostics or atheists significant rise in those numbers and and in you know the traditional religions and for women if you identify

00:15:38 > as I agnostic or atheist you're less likely to plan to have kids and that makes a lot of sense particularly in the west where some of the religions tend to promote having kids because it's good for the religion exactly so that and some of the other findings led to the conclusion that women today the number of quotes throughout the book you know from these young women saying you know I kids would be great but you know my career is really important to me and I don't see how I can take time off I mean the amount of time the people expecting planet to take off with the arrival of their kids is also way down like by half you know in the 20 years so you know the expectation of much more absorption in work and career is it's just on every dimension very very clear one of my relatives used to teach computer science

00:16:39 > at Stanford and when she had children she realized there was no way she could be a start-up executive in Silicon Valley which she had been and be the kind of mother she wanted to be so she made a conscious and really painful decision to not pursue her career to take off time and raise her kids and she's an amazing mother and I've heard that before and she kind of gets mad when people say you can be the perfect mother and hold down a high-pressure job at the same time because you'll end up making cuts in both of them and you load up with suboptimal results on both sides and she decided to make the choice she made do you think maybe women are making a rational or a good choice when they say I'm going to choose between the two because I want to focus all my energy and attention on either one it's a it's a great question there and I know I hear this all the time and I'm not sure if I have a really good answer

00:17:40 > you know what I've discovered with the Torah leadership work is that people often have opportunities for for attending you know to their families and their work in ways that they hadn't thought about before that allow that to give each domain the attention that they deserve but it is tough and certainly one of the things that we saw with the baby bus study was that you know women today in contrast to the Gen Xers when they graduated they're more realistic about just what you spoke to you know that there's you can't have it all you know men are much more likely to feel like they can't have it all but women are more inclined today than they were 20 years ago to say about what makes for a dual career relationship successful well one of us is going to have to lean

00:18:42 > back and it's probably going to be me the interesting thing about the findings on dual careers though one of the glimmers of hope in this in this study is that men today compared to their forebears you know 20 years ago are much more likely to feel that it takes a 50-50 deal at home for dual career relationships to work they are more egalitarian they believe more in you know in the share of responsibility in the domestic organization as it were then then 20 years ago and so there's actually now compared to 20 years ago they were very far apart men and women in their attitudes about what makes the dual career relationship work that one person has to give up their career for the sake of the family now they're much more aligned as men have become more egalitarian and women have become less so so now the reviews are almost identical whereas 20 years ago they were

00:19:43 > really far apart and so one of the things we're doing on campus now is have it we're giving the book to students and having them read it and then come to talk about in small groups what are these results mean to you and now let's bring together men and women to talk about what the implications are for our choices going forward and that's happening all over America not not that everybody in America is reading this book or the findings but these kinds of conversations and what we're trying to do with the work-life integration project that warden is to be a catalyst for these you know new conversations that enable people to explore these questions at a younger age and to talk among themselves about what's possible and what they can do and what it means for how they you know pursue the next phases of their lives and careers it that can't imagine being ready to have a conversation like that in my mid-20s I was like I'm not going to touch having

00:20:44 > kids until I'm at least 35 it there's no way I'm ready I'm not interested i want to kick ass for the next 10 years yes is the problem is it's pretty different for men and women because if you decide you want to start having kids at 35 as a woman that's the year that the risk of all sorts of problems goes up absolutely we had my own two kids when my wife was aged 39 and 40 2 and after she recovered from being infertile which was diagnosed in the early 30s that was part of our whole health program but researching all the risks that happen there there's a pretty clear health case to be made for having your kids when you're younger both as a man and as women but then you end up making those egalitarian choices around career so you don't get the meteoric rise earlier because your quote distracted by the kids I got out of this all right days now you're getting into big picture kind of let's think really differently territory um so you know

00:21:47 > better than I you know the health research on longevity and how life spans are increasing so you know the expectation that my daughter has is that she'll chill it into the triple digits most likely I do too you do what I have the same expectation yeah of yourself or your children myself yeah okay so that's new you think about you know the traditional life spans much much much much shorter and think about all the social and economic institutions that are built around that model of a much shorter life and a much shorter career you know there are companies many many many companies that are you must retire at 64 65 two of my top employees are over 60 yeah well I'm 61 and I can't imagine not working for the next you know forever right so so it's um you

00:22:52 > know what the real crunch here is that we've got all these social institutions the way we educate our students and ourselves are the kinds of policies that we've got regarding child care leave time for child-rearing and other important activities in life the kinds of practices that support you know career trajectories that are meteoric starts and then flattening those models are all built around a an expectation of life spans that are different than what we currently have and they've built around gender roles you know sex roles that are also no longer valid you know single and her father at mom at home with two and a half kids that's just not the norm anymore so what has to shift and this is again big picture we've got

00:23:54 > to take small steps towards it but but what I see the pressure to innovate and to evolve is in how we think about careers so that you know you take the spam and you extend it you take the span of time when people are learning and you expand that so that a successful life and career you know goes in waves and it goes for a much longer period of time so that success isn't measured in you know have you hit you know have you grabbed the golden ring by 30 it's it's a different slower you know what I refer to in the book is a slow careers movement you know to kind of parallel slow foods and some other slow things where you know the pace is more tuned to the way we live now that flies in the face of an expectation of working 72 hours a week oh I know no it's it's a it's a radical vision that I don't think

00:24:56 > we're going to see very soon however you know the process of cultural change being the slog that it is you know it happens one story at a time as you hear about people who have tried different ways of living and have had success on their terms and the more we tell those stories and you know progressive companies are doing this telling the stories of people who have succeeded you know with alternate strategies and models for you know how they integrate the different parts of their lives the more you hear those stories the more you say well hey Dave did it and look how he did it and maybe I could try something like that too so it's a it's a long slow process and you're right it does fly in the face of the the expectation that these young people today have about you know what they think they need to do to to be successful but I think I think it wouldn't surprise me if those numbers

00:25:58 > start to go down as more and more people become disaffected with the standard you know super fast track model it wouldn't surprise me too if what we used to call telecommuting was a part of this and I've stopped using that term because the assumption they have to commute is asinine so all the people that I collaborate with ya on bulletproof you know on making the coffee and just getting the information out there that I'm sharing they're all over the place they work remote they work from home where they work from wherever they are mm-hmm and from that perspective of 40 hour work week doesn't make that much sense because the two hours that they would have wasted on makeup or getting dressed and shopping and commuting and putting gas in the car they get all that back and if they want to go to the eleven o'clock yoga class I don't know and I don't care less they get it done of course that even if

00:26:59 > you're if you have kids you don't have kids whatever that kind of model seems to let people work more than 40 hours and still have better work-life balance than they did when they had to be in a fluorescent lit cubicle prison cell did that come into your survey did you pay attention to that in the overall questions that you asked the people in twenty twelve verses 2002 I brought those ideas more into the recommendations so that you know the but the class of 90 to 20 years later we asked a whole bunch of questions about their their work and you know the work engagement the time they spend on how they spend their time in other parts of their lives and that's that's the next study is to look at like what those people are doing now and how what you know what they said about what they expected it could predict what they'd actually be doing now but you know not in not in the baby bus study except in

00:28:01 > the implications and the kinds of things you're talking about it just exactly what I'm you know advocating for in the things that we need to do it's all about you know from an organizational point of view from a business point of view laser focus on results maximum flexibility and how they're chipped that's what's needed that's my primary recommendation to companies and it's something we've known for years and years you gotta give people freedom of course it requires trust and good ways of measuring results you know that all parties agree on so when you say get it done everybody needs to know what you mean by that that would be it oh yeah what is it and yeah exactly so it puts a different set of pressures on on executives like yourself to be super clear about what it is and and then to invest you know the authority with trust in the people who you're you know you're asking to get it done to do in a way that they see as you

00:29:05 > know most most effective from from their point of view it's a different model again this is you know this requires a different mindset for for the you know for today's executive and that's the trend that's where we've been going over the last couple of decades is towards greater delegation of authority greater freedom more trust but certainly there are some industries especially where that just not happening this would be any regulated industry so if you work in insurance finance banking or government you're probably screwed because of all the regulatory oversight that keeps you from doing things that normal people do uh I don't know if i've used we're adorable but yeah you're right regulatory environment can be hostile to innovation yeah and in workplace practices which is very very very very unfortunate in my coaching practice I get a lot of clients out of a hedge fund and just uber high performing money

00:30:06 > manager types and you know they work incredible hours yeah sometimes you have to be this place you have to be in that place and you end up beating yourself up for long periods of time and I find that there's an disproportionate number of MBAs in that crowd and they tend to be more type a and they tend to be more attracted to anything that's going to enhance performance rather than necessarily something that's going to just increase health because we all want health but it's nebulous when you do work whether it's total leadership style yeah or you do your surveys with baby bust how do people prioritize the career success versus health or how did even measure it it seems they're both of them are kind of nebulous there aren't quantifiable metrics well you know the health indicators this a lot of research on this and there are some standard metrics

00:31:07 > that they're subjective and it's usually on the basis of compared to people your age how you know fill in the blank stressed are you how I do you think your physical health is your emotional health and those turn out to be pretty reliable indicators of how you're doing in terms of your your health and so I do ask people about their health arm and it's a it's again the the imagined the perceived comparison you know to a relevant peer group that gives a good measure of a subjective measure nonetheless but a good measure of how you think things are going for you and so yeah it's one of the first things I do in the total leadership work is how satisfied are you at work at home in the community and for yourself which is your mind body and spirit and then how will are you performing in meeting the expectations of the people who matter to you at work at home in the community and your own expectations for yourself I mean I know you know this because you

00:32:08 > did this ten years ago but yeah we're asking directly about that before they do the work of grasping more fully what their values are thinking really clearly and getting feedback on their future vision identifying the key people in their lives and having real conversations with them about mutual expectations and then doing these experiments to try to make things better in all four domains without having to sacrifice any one of them and discovering that if you take that mindset if you if you put on a new set of lenses and say all right let me see where there's an opportunity to make things better in all four domains instead of having to trade off well then your mindset starts to shift and then you know at four months later we have we take those measures again of health as well as you know how well you're doing in meeting expectations of the key people around you and we usually find improvement but the main thing that

00:33:09 > shifts is the mindset here's how you think about what's possible and that's really what we're going after so about a half a million people will hear the bolt through podcast this month and 60 print some of them don't have kids forty percent of them do and all of them are interested in improving their performance or they probably wouldn't be listening so what advice would you have to people who are on either side of that kids or no kids but you really care about their performance how should they start measuring this if they don't go down the full told leadership your survey all my my stakeholders in my life around me okay how should I start thinking about it if I'm new to this idea say well I guess I should you know what's the first step mm-hmm well there are some tools that we have for free at total leadership org so if you go to the performance tools page there's some really simple self assessments you can do that get you thinking so you know

00:34:11 > I'll ask you to take the four way view where you simply look at work home community itself however you define those different domains and then take on your points and divide them up how important is each domain to you so some people 25 25 25 25 for some people work because everything 100 000 or whatever it is and then right next to that is another column where you you're asked where do you focus your attention in a typical week or month on a percentage basis and again take another 100 points and divide them up look at that I said hmm where am I focusing my attention relative to what's important to me and then in the third column I asked you well how things going in each domain at work at home in the community and for yourself how satisfied are you from on a simple scale subjective of 1 to 10 and then last column how will you performing in each domain imagine I was to talk to the four or five people who know you best in the bulletproof organization

00:35:13 > Dave and I were to ask them how well is Dave doing and meeting your expectations and you know what would they say on average on the scale of one to ten you know you do that little thought exercise and come up with your best assessment so that to exercise in looking at the four way view what's important we where is your attention how do you feel internally and how well do you think other people see you in meeting their expectations that reveals a lot of information about whether there's alignment between what you care about and what you do and where the opportunities for improving your satisfaction and performance really are and the immediate question that you know that that I ask you to consider is what small step could you take now within your control without getting permission from anyone that would make things a little bit better for you and the people around you who matter most to you and what I have found day from asking that

00:36:15 > question of literally tens of thousands of people is that there's no one I have met who cannot answer that question with a hmmm there's something I could do you know it might involve delegating differently it might involve you know changing your schedule some it might involve in but you know bringing people from one part of your life into another part it might involve focusing your attention on one person at a time you know during a specific time of day it might involve appreciating people in your life in ways that you had before there's all kinds of experiments that people do there are nine different kinds and you can see descriptions and examples and tips on how to pursue those on our site along with alumni such as yourself talking about the impact of doing this kind of work so visit the site there's a whole bunch of free tools there where you can learn some of these things and try them won't take long and outside with a total ownership org and we'll link to that in the show notes if

00:37:16 > people come over the site will make sure they can find your work now I do something called biohacking which means I am my own guinea pig and I look at how changes to the world around me or to what I put into my body food or supplements or electrical currents or whatever else affect my performance mm-hmm and one of the things that inspired that practice was your class in that you looked at tracking results in a way that was way more quantitative than a typical leadership kind of soft mushy leadership coach would do what made you get so hard asked about show me the data give me a number versus kind of how are we doing today can we have a hug scene kumbaya you know walk over the coals kind of thing well we still walk over the coals Dave but now I never did I think it's a combination of my you know the rigor that I you know I was trained in i'm a PhD organizational psychologist and I

00:38:19 > love data because I think it helps us to learn so I was trained as a scientist and so this model is very much about a kind of scientific method so you know I call these trials these these initiatives these innovations in how you live and work I call them experiments and I ask people to think about themselves as scientists and the laboratory is their life just as you do and I find that that framing is really valuable and what would require the data I mean we know there's research that says very clearly that people learn leadership they learn how to think of themselves as someone who can mobilize other people to get important things done they learn more about how to do that on not necessarily by walking on coals and singing Kumbaya but by trying something new that they really care about that is challenging to them that stretches them and surrounding those

00:39:22 > experiences with two things support and accountability pressure from other people piers best and data that you know before during and after that tells you how are you doing and what's working and what's not you can't learn without data so that's why I'm so passionate and so focused on it because I know their works and I i believe inside yeah data and accountability is a shockingly powerful metric or set of metrics yes what are the other things besides those that result in more productivity for people a lot of people are very how do I get more productivity what are the other tricks you may have come across for that well what a lot of people discover in there and the experiments that they try is that there's they're wasting effort on things that don't matter so one of the discoveries this may have happened with you with the stakeholder dialogues that you know these three principles be real

00:40:23 > act with authenticity by clarifying what's important the whole recognize and respect all the different parts your life and be innovative act with creativity by experimenting with how things get done so in that middle part which is really the heart of it what you do is identify the key people at work at home in the community and then you think through what do they expect of me what do I expect to them how will am i doing in meeting their expectations and you rate that getting coaching from people around you on you know do you really think you know that Dave are you just making that up or how you know that and then you talk to them and you gain insight about how other people really see you and what typically happens in those stakeholder dialogues as you go in you say okay Dave you're one of the most important people in my life and I want to want to talk with you about how we can strengthen our relationship is that something you'd be willing to do and naturally you say of course and you feel probably honored and flattered and yeah

00:41:25 > this is really cool it still stinks to me this way and it's actually not true Dave although you are important to me you're not the most important person um but just imagine doing that with people who are real you know in your everyday life and and you say like okay so I've thought about it some and I think these are the four things that I think are most important to you Dave and I list them a b c and d so i've invested some time and thinking this through do I have it right Dave what am I missing and when it's likely to happen if you like most of my clients and students is that you're going come back to me and say well Stu first of all this is awesome i'm so glad we're having this conversation and it's great to hear how you think you know how you see you know what matters to me and i'm so glad you thought about that but let me tell you you know the first two things if you hadn't mentioned that i think that there was something seriously wrong with you so like yes of course but the third and fourth things that you mentioned i actually don't worry that

00:42:26 > much about this really dana i've been wearing a lot about whether or not you're worried about those things and you say well you know not important will tell me why that is I thought it was and here's why I thought it was these things were important to you why are they not and you explain it to me and so with my relentless curiosity I then pursue this trying to take what i call the leadership leap seeing myself through your eyes and really getting inside your your head to see what matters to you I said well is there something else that matters to you that i haven't mentioned here and you say well Stu since you're being so open and not defensive and yeah i'll tell you there's this other thing and you tell me as a wow I hadn't even thought about that I didn't know that matter to you tell me more about like what could I do and how would how would my actions help you to live the life you

00:43:28 > want to live and so it goes on like that and that's how many of the conversations go and so now think about the net effect of that of that interaction I went in with these four things in my head right worried about whether or not I was meeting your expectations on these four things and I come out with these three things so what does that mean for what i can do differently going forward it's going to change your whole direction because you realize that the variables you were optimizing where the wrong variables which is kind of a huge thing some were writing some are wrong so i can now exactly i can now be direct some of my attention and energy to the things that are more more directly focused on the things that matter to you so i'm going to i'm going to weigh less time pursuing the things that don't matter to me or to you and I'm going to become more productive less focused less distracted and more energetic and that's what we see people actually spend less time at work less of their attention on

00:44:29 > work but their performance goes up that was definitely my experience although when I was going through that process I looked at the amount of energy versus return that I was getting on the relationship domain and I ended up getting divorced so it makes that I'm mmm yeah was a myth conversations with you about that back then yeah it was it was a stressful time but it was also really useful to have the data and just realize like this is a bottomless pit for me I no matter what I put into this I don't feel like I'm getting anything back that matches my goals and what I'm trying to get and to see the raw hard data and then to have the conversations then you should be having with the stakeholders in your life anyway and realized it's just not there it was really valuable may be tough so it takes a lot of courage for people to step up and ask the stakeholders around them like you're making yourself very vulnerable to say am i doing a good job it's way worse than a 360-degree review which is when the people work for you

00:45:31 > tell you whether they like what you're doing and you tell your boss with you like them that's a little taste of what happens when you really go out and and have the face-to-face conversations you recommend in the book how many people just chickened out because it's too scary ah that's a great question if you're taking my class you know it's a lot harder to chicken out if you just picking up the book in the airport or something or you know you're listening to this podcast and you start to read anything yeah you know that's a little too much it's that accountability and support that you get in a peer network so a lot of people read this as like part of a book club or you know in a class there's a lot of classes that use it and that's where I think it has the most value because it is so easy to say wow that's too hard you're totally right it does take courage to look within and to see yourself as other see you and to do that exploration and not everybody wants to do it not everybody has at the

00:46:34 > time or you know the energy or the inclination which is why you know it's it's not a good idea to do this if you don't want to but if you see a need and you see potential value it can be very helpful and enlightening but it does take effort for sure so if you're listening to this podcast you're interested in stepping up so this is the kind of thing that you need to do even if it's scary because if you don't you're just not going to hit the potential that you're capable of because you don't have the data you're flying blind and you probably flying in the wrong direction even without knowing it mmm it's a good way to put it so on that notes do there's a question that I asked every guest on the podcast as we went to a close given all the things you've learned both in your career just and as a human being what are your top three recommendations for people want to perform better if someone wants to just kick more ass at life what are the three most important things you've learned

00:47:39 > love the question ah which I appreciate your asking I am clearly the most important thing is something that probably had four guests say but it's just so true and that is you've really got to have the openness and curiosity and courage to continue to discover what you care about if you're not attuned to that question what do I care about in life how do I want to leave this world better if you're not asking yourself that question periodically then you're missing out on the joys of you know being a person so I think that's number one that you know you've got a you've got to ask yourself what matters and then the leadership Pete to this is all right now what can I do to get support for pursuing that vision of the kind of world i'm trying to create

00:48:40 > and to take yourself out of the equation and look to you know what is it that the people around me need that I can help them with and now and then the third piece of that is well how do I then align what matters most to me with what matters to the people around me and I think therein lies you know the the magic of and it's of course continually evolving and extremely complex but knowing what matters to you knowing what matters to the people around you and just continually trying a ways of aligning those forces that's that seems to me to be the the key to both success and happiness you certainly spent a lifetime studying what makes people perform better in your work at Ford your work at warden so those are amazing answers and I appreciate them well thanks for asking and for creating this this this community of people interested

00:49:43 > in addressing these questions I think it's fabulous and I congratulate you thank you Stu one more time tell us the name of both of your books and the websites people to go to to learn more about you alright so total leadership be a better leader have a richer life and there's tons of information about it at total leadership org the new book is called baby bust new choices for men and women in work and family and you can learn about that at the Wharton work-life integration project so that's the Wharton work-life integration project at work life dot word and I upenn TD just if you google wharton work life you'll find us alright and we'll put all these in the show notes so if people come to bulletproof exact calm there'll be a transcription and all the info that they need in order to find all the different stuff we talked about well i'd love to hear from your your community and friends if they have any questions or want to follow up you can drop me a line I'm Friedman at Wharton that you penned I DD love to hear from

you stew it's been awesome to see you again after all this time my pleasure to work you did in the class a long time ago and thanks for being on the show today they've totally my pleasure thanks so much for having me I really appreciate it study just came out showing that the white part of Oreo cookies actually activates more opiate receptors in the brain then cocaine does so for individuals who are literally addicted to food these are people who are eating till they're vomiting eating till they're sick I mean just this is a bad bad place so it was you need to stop freebasing Oreos is out you're saying haha