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: Need one more reason why your Safeway store is just better. How about free Cuisinart Classic Cutlery or Elite Flatware? That’s right. For every $10 you spend, earn a free stamp saver you can redeem for Cuisinart items. Once you’ve collected between 30 and 60 stamps, you could start shopping for a variety of Cuisinart Cutlery or Flatware available at the in-store display. Present your items and stamp saver at checkout. It’s simple. Spend $10, get your free stamp saver, start collecting. Safeway, it’s just better! You’re listening to Holistic Living, brought to you by East West Healing and Performance. And now, here are your hosts, Josh and Jeanne Rubin.

Josh Rubin: What up, everyone. This is Josh and Jeannie Rubin from East West Healing and Performance. For some reason, at the beginning of every show, we have a problem with that little intro that we have it’s so great, but who cares? Welcome again for a great show. We’re going to have Ray Peat on once again. And prior to me doing his intro and talking about the show, of course, I want to tell you a little bit about what we do, for those of you who don’t know what we do or who we are. We own, let me say, a wellness company down in San Diego care, Carlsbad, California. We work with people that have GI problems, hormone problems, you know, physical problems, low back pain, things like that from all over the world. And we get clients as far away as Norway, Israel, Switzerland. So we work with a lot of clients via Skype, long-distance phone as well as in person. So check out our website at eastwesthealing.com if you want to learn more about what we do as well as check out our webpage because there is a lot of great resources on there, websites , articles, YouTubes and things like that. And you can get links from our website to our YouTube page, blog, Facebook, all those great things. Stay tuned as well. Our website in the next three months is going to be changing dramatically, so we’re really excited about that. We’re going to be launching some products and things like that, so definitely stay tuned. So today’s show, once again, is we’re going to have Ray Peat on who is going to be talking about basically sugar and really kind of dispelling some of the myths about sugar and really talking about why we need sugar, the types of sugar, and what Ray’s thoughts are on sugar. And for those of you that don’t know Ray or what he is about, you can visit his website at raypeat.com. Ray has a PhD in biology from the University of Oregon and he specializes in Physiology. He has taught at many schools from the University of Oregon, two different naturopathic schools, to other schools down in Mexico. And he started his work in regards to hormones such as progesterone and things like that back in the 1960s. So if you want to learn more about him, definitely check out his website. He has got a lot of great articles. They are very in-depth. He does have a lot of good books that you can buy. They are on backorder right now because he is just a little bit, I guess, overwhelmed and inundated by emails. So before we get them on, one thing I wanted to bring up was, once again, I know for a lot of people that are emailing Ray and they are emailing Ray, and the thing about Ray is he is a very humble guy from how I know Ray. And he is going to keep basically answering your emails and he is going to keep doing it. And the problem is, this is the reason why he put off selling the books because he is super busy. So I’ve said before, all the screen information – he is kind of a scientist, he is not a nutritionist. And all this information is due to, obviously, being able to do the research. So all I ask – this is not what he asks, this is all I ask – that if you keep emailing him and he keeps sending you emails back, you can go to his website, you can find his address and all I’m asking or all me and Jeanne are asking is send him some money. I don’t care if it’s a dollar. I don’t care if it’s $5, $10 or $500. Please send him something because this great information can’t get out unless he can do the research. And the more time you take essentially for free in a sense, he can’t do this research. So please – and I know for a fact people are not doing it because I talked to people that – which very excited about – all they said, we got all this information on reading over a super long email. And when I ask if they sent him anything and they say no. So please, please send him something. So let me get Ray and Jeanne on. Let me see if I can click them in.

Jeanne Rubin: I think we’re in, Josh. We’ve been on.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes.

Josh Rubin: Yeah. I can hear you. Are you there, Ray?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes.

Jeanne Rubin: Ray, I don’t know if you want to add anything to what Josh was just expressing. I am not sure exactly what your thoughts are on that. We just want to make sure that people are respectful of your time and energy.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, I am sending fewer very long answers now that more people are writing and trying to condense my answers.

Josh Rubin: Yes.

Jeanne Rubin: Awesome. Well, we appreciate that you take the time do so. I know we’ve got a lot of people’s interest as far as what it is you do and what you’ve learned through your research. So, again, we appreciate that.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And I know a lot of people appreciate it too because our listeners on the show and inquiries we get in regards to your stuff, the buzz is out and you’re definitely making a difference. And I know – well, my perception is that’s kind of what you want. So it’s great stuff. So we definitely appreciate it. So hoping everyone heard that. So let’s talk about sugar, starch, glycemia, all these important things or I should say, it’s – in our industry, this is probably the one topic that really people are interested in because there is so much out there. So, I guess, starting out before we get into nitty-gritty, there is many different types of sugars and you can kind of touch on that. I'm sure we’ll touch upon it. But you have so many people out there saying don’t eat sugar. Sugar is in everything. Stay away from it. It causes diabetics. It causes insulin resistance. It creates cancer and increases ages in the body. You know, you name it, it’s bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. And then we look at your research and it’s completely difference. Now of course we have to talk about types of sugar, but kind of what got you started on really focusing on starch or sugar or glycemia.

Dr. Ray Peat: One of the things was reading John Yudkin’s book, the English guy who wrote a book saying that sugar causes heart disease, and he was very clear showing that sugar increases cholesterol and that was back in the time when everyone was saying cholesterol causes heart disease. And I was very impressed by his research but since I saw cholesterol as a protective factor from studying progesterone, I saw that if you’re deficient in progesterone or under stress, your body would increase production of cholesterol to make more progesterone to protect your systems. And so I believed Yudkin was on the right track but since I say cholesterol as protective rather than harmful, I took his evidence to mean that sugar would helped resist stress, so that started me. Along that line – and I have been a migrainer for all my life and I gradually came see that a change in my rhythm of eating in relation to activity was usually what brought on a migraine attack. And often I would have very odd food cravings just before the migraine appeared and even shortly after eating, I would get food cravings and I started trusting those cravings and eating again, and I found that if I ate enough sweet stuff like a quart of ice cream when I felt a migraine coming on, it wouldn’t come on. And I was also a sort of a problem sleeper if I stayed up just an hour or two after my normal bed time, then my sleep would be disturbed even for a couple following nights.

And one night I was talking on the radio and that I wanted to keep going hour after hour and I had a friend to go out and buy me huge milkshakes about one an hour and I was able to keep talking until 1: 00 AM, and didn’t have any problem at all going to sleep. And so I recognized that I had a peculiar need for sugar when I was doing anything unusually stressful, and so that started me thinking more about the physiology of it.

Josh Rubin: Now there is so many myths out there about it that is it’s when I say here, I think we have to start elaborating I guess on the types of sugar, you know, monosaccharide, disaccharide or whether it’s fruit or if we’re just talking street sugar. Now there is so many myths out there, I guess getting into the physiology, most people don’t advocate using cards like sugar to actually increase health. I mean, most people out there are like the Paleo diet are saying high protein low carb, and all these people are say if you want to lose weight which we know it doesn’t mean it’s healthy, eat high protein, low carb. And you kind of go the other way in a sense. Now physiological what’s the importance of getting the sugars in our body?

Dr. Ray Peat: At one time I was experimenting with chocolate as a source of magnesium and I found that bitter chocolate like a coffee was extremely high in magnesium and some other nutrients But chocolate happens to be very high in leucine and it would give me what blood sugar and I would crave something to eat very shortly after eating a lump of black chocolate. And that started me thinking about the amino acids in relation to blood sugar and I saw that several of the amino acids in proteins are powerful insulin stimulants. And when you eat protein by itself, you stimulate insulin secretion which is needed to metabolize the amino acids. But in reaction to the insulin, your liver has to put out glucose to keep your blood sugar going to your brain and blood cells and kidneys and so on can keep working. And if your liver is somewhat low on glycogen, then every time you eat protein and have an insulin secretion, your body secretes a compensating amount of cortisol to bring your blood sugar back up but the cortisol brings your blood sugar up at the expense of protein. And so partly cortisol –the first tissues that cortisol breaks down are your thymus gland and other immune cells and the muscles. And if you eat lots of protein in spite of the high cortisol, you can keep your balance such that you are replacing your muscles and thymus gland, but you are running on a constantly high cortisol secretion. And my previous interest in diabetes I had seen that doctors simply neglected to measure hormones that were related to blood sugar when they would prescribe insulin, calling a person a diabetic, they said they needed to take insulin for the rest of their life. But having some of these people test their cortisol, we saw that very many of these so-called diabetics just had very high cortisol and sugar happens to be the best thing for lowering cortisol to normal. And since high cortisol gives impression of diabetes causing high blood sugar, you get the unexpected effect of – when you eat sugar, you lower the cortisol and some of these people had a very quick recovery from their so-called diabetes.

Josh Rubin: Now just I wrote a couple of things down beside t he 20-plus questions I have. And talking about cortisol take a little tangent here. There is so much out there on adrenal fatigue. In my perception over the years, there is a lot of people took Hans Selye’s work and kind of misperceived what it is putting out in regards to his general adaptation syndrome. They talk about high cortisol and using sugar to actually lower cortisol. What about people that have low cortisol? So is that possible or is that just a fluctuation of maybe being hypo or hyperglycemic?

Dr. Ray Peat: In Selye’s studies, he never talked about adrenal fatigue.

Josh Rubin: Right.

Dr. Ray Peat: Exhaustion was his work. When you would stress an animal terribly, first couple of days it would get ulcers and if it didn’t bleed to death, it might adapt, but if you kept the stress up, you would eventually kill the rat from stress. And he had the different phases, the shock, the adaptation and the exhaustion phases. And in the exhaustion phase, the animal would die from stress. And he very early in his studies found that pregnant animals didn’t need their adrenal glands. And as soon as they would have a liver then the next stress would kill them because their progesterone was no longer being produced to compensate for the adrenal absence. And so he gave some animals a daily dose of progesterone after taking out their adrenal glands and found that they would live a full normal healthy life lacking their adrenals absolutely. So the adrenals are there to regulate your sugar and salt and it happens that progesterone just as nicely regulates sugar and salt metabolism. And to produce these hormones, either progesterone or the adrenal hormones, you need various nutrients but especially to convert cholesterol into pregnenolone and then the other steroids, the essential factors are thyroid hormone and vitamin A, and those are so closely connected that they travel in the blood on the same protein and are taken up by the steroid synthesizing cells on that protein transported right into the mitochondrion for enzymes use those to convert cholesterol into the pregnenolone and the other steroids. So if a person is deficient in Vitamin A or thyroid, their cholesterol tends to rise trying to compensate for the deficient ability to produce the adaptive hormones. And with the thyroid or nutritional deficiency, you can be deficient in the steroid hormones but that’s – it isn't the fault of the adrenal glands. The adrenal glands are extremely adoptive. When someone wants an animal that can’t produce adrenaline since the core of the adrenal gland is where adrenal is produced, they would scoop out the contents in adrenal capsule including the cortex and there would be a layer of adrenal cortical cells left in this capsule. And within just a few days the adrenal of cortex hormones would have regenerated so you can basically destroy the adrenals, and if you have a few cells left and have good nutrition and thyroid function, the adrenal cortex will regenerate very well.

Josh Rubin: Right. Interesting. And I think it’s important for everyone to know the reason we’re talking about this kind of caveat is because cortisol is a glucocorticoid and you said it regulate blood sugar and so many people doing labs and saying I need supplements when we need to look at blood sugar, are we eating the right food, are we eating the wrong food that we can't even breakdown, we eating foods that blood sugar from getting in the cell.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, that’s where fructose and sucrose come in, because fructose is the most powerful sugar at regulating blood sugar both up and down. It’s been used in diabetics for decades as a small supplement to help bring down their blood sugar but it also is effective in hypoglycemia because it helps to regulate insulin production and slowly turns into glucose helping to regulate glucose use whether you’re low or high as the starting point.

Josh Rubin: Can you give some examples for people that are listening that might not know, like where would they can get fructose?

Dr. Ray Peat: Health food stores used to sell pure fructose. I don’t know if they still do, since the sort of mania about it has started or the phobia. But I think some bakeries use it but I don’t recommend it in any of those prepared foods because it’s almost always combined with starches and starches have a very quick ability to turn into glucose where fructose is a very slow controlled converter into glucose and so it regulates insulin.

Josh Rubin: I want to take another little caveat because you were talking about insulin earlier and something that a lot of people get confused about it and it’s even kind of confused me at the time is in your article you talked about insulin and you talked how insulin itself has been found to come from about 8% of the insulin like activity in the blood with the caffeine being probably the largest factor. Can you elaborate on that a little bit for everyone?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. Several things imitate the function of insulin. For example, if a diabetic exercises just whatever the exercise he is doing is increasing the cells ’ ability to take up and use glucose and the leucine in some foods like chocolate acts like insulin and will duplicate the functions of insulin to – like you use sugar faster. But potassium in these studies, they found that potassium itself has that effect and that’s probably one of the things involved in exercise, insulin like action. And that – since fruits are one of the best sources of potassium, that is another thing that makes fruits a good food besides usually they have about 50-50 fructose and glucose. Sucrose molecule is one half fructose and half glucose. And besides that balance between glucose and sucrose, the fruits always contain a lot of potassium and some other minerals. Magnesium is another one that helps to regulate glucose. So when you take, for example orange juice or grape juice or the fruits, the high potassium content reduces the amount of insulin you have to secrete to handle those and that accounts for why they are much more smoothly handled than a similar number of calories in the form of starch.

Josh Rubin: Right. So kind of going with that, you know, obviously we know that you’re an advocate of sucrose and we’ll talk about different types, but you’re talking about fruit. I guess for the listeners, what types of fruits do you recommend and which ones do you think, I guess, could hurt us versus help us, because I know one of your biggest things is every one out there is looking at, you know, what is good for us, but kind of your philosophy – and I don’t want to speak for you, but it’s almost like what actually can hurt us. So maybe talking about some of the fruits that you think are beneficial and why in regards to sucrose but also some of the fruits that can actually be not beneficial for us?

Dr. Ray Peat: There are almost all of the sweet fruits are unbalanced better than the alternative of eating bread and pasta and cereals and such but among the sweet fruits, there are some factors that make a choice possible. For example, bananas, unless they are ripened to the point that they are sort of a translucent and very much the average why people eat bananas is almost all starch with enough sugar to make them pleasant tasting, but the high starch content is not an ideal food, not only because it has a great tendency to stimulate insulin but also because when you don’t eat it with a lot of fat, the starch grains actually can get into your blood stream and large starch grains or often bigger than red blood cells so they clog your small arterials and cause chronic tissue injury. Gerhard Volkheimer was the person who did that in some of his articles with very nice photographs, microphotographs of plugged arteries and of the starch grains actually in process of being absorbed into the bloodstream and lymph system are on the internet. Besides the starch problem with some fruits such as bananas, you have the allergy problem, and I think that’s partly because of the industrialization of banana farming, use of a lot of chemicals and just overuse of the soil stresses the plants And you’ve heard of the latex allergy probably corresponding to the banana allergy, both of those, the rubber trees and the banana plants are both highly industrialized stressed crops, and I think that it’s the defensive stress substances that the plants evolved to kill insects that were attacking them. Those highly cropped species produce this insecticidal enzyme which happens to be highly allergenic to humans. And so even apples, some brands of apples have quite a high allergen content. And cooking many of the allergenic fruits makes them safer to eat. And the same with the starches, very well-cooked starchy fruits are much safer than the raw fruits.` And a third factor in fruits to watch out for is the serotonin content, and bananas again excel in their high serotonin content which has – before people were aware of it, they were diagnosing intestinal tumors, when they found high serotonin content in the urine because some tumors produce excess serotonin and if you eat bananas or prunes and plums, kiwis, several types of fruits are high in serotonin, so that’s just one factor to be aware of, but starch and allergens are probably generally more important. And pretty much that leaves some things like watermelons and grapes and citrus fruits, oranges in particular.

Josh Rubin: Now do you really put mangoes in the allergy category and the pineapples in the banana serotonin category?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, pineapples are known to have a fairly high amount of tryptophan that can contribute to the serotonins. And mangoes, it’s – I’m not sure – they are in the same family as poison oak.

Josh Rubin: Yes.

Dr. Ray Peat: And in the tropics, after I had enjoyed about a kilogram of mangoes, some people said, oh didn’t you know about mango sickness, and it’s well-known in the tropics but I think it’s partly that they are sort of a fibrous fruit and partly if the fiber isn't handled by the right bacteria, it can cause toxin production in the intestine. My next newsletter is going to be relating to the issue of fiber, soluble fiber or anything – any carbohydrate that isn’t sugar can potentially feed bacteria that produce toxins and cause systemic stress.

Josh Rubin: Awesome, really look forward to that one. I want to talk about the gut but talk a little bit more about the serotonin. I’m not about where I read this, and I could have read it incorrectly, but you talk about CO2 and when you talk about hibernation in relation to serotonin but also glucose in the body playing a factor in that, and I don’t know if it was – if you’re having low glucose – blood sugar levels and you release in the cortisol and you’re going through that gluconeogenesis state and breakdown your tissues if you have that excess serotonin, [indiscernible] [0-30-30] connection between all that.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. Serotonin – like endotoxin and histamine, serotonin is a major trigger of the stress adaptation system, and so it turns on the hypothalamic protein hormone that turns on the pituitary hormone that turns on the adrenals. So serotonin works at a very basic level to increase the stress reaction. And the internet is full of people saying that sugar will raise your serotonin. But I think what they are meaning is that you feel good after you eat a bunch of sugar and feeling good is supposed to mean that your serotonin is up, but actually it's free fatty acids which cause your brain to take up more tryptophan and make more serotonin. And you produce more free fatty acids when your blood sugar is low and when you're under stress. So stress or starvation, hypoglycemia will make you produce these free fatty acids which will send serotonin into your brain and trigger the adaptive stress reaction which brings out the cortisol.

Josh Rubin: So if we’re not eating the right fruits, we’re not getting enough sugar protein, fat, whatever, we’re not storing it which we should talk about and there was a question from a listener that emailed me and wanted to know, if they want to lose weight is it important to actually metabolize fatty acids to use fat for energy and you’re actually saying the opposite to most people, it’s actually harmful. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the dangers of liberating free fatty acids beside the whole serotonin connection?

Dr. Ray Peat: When you're at rest, the resting muscle is metabolizing a very small amount of fuel, just the maintenance amount, but its fuel at rest is fatty acid and at maximal activity, you are burning almost pure sugar. And so at rest, the fat is being handled by your muscles and not causing any great rise in free fatty acids. The muscles use it just about as fast as it's released. But if your liver is well-energized with thyroid hormone, all the nutrients including adequate sugar, your liver is able to treat any excess free fatty acids produced by stress as any other toxin and your liver can attach glucuronic acid to these fatty acids and excrete them into urine and bile just as if it was insecticide or something you’ve eaten. So a healthy liver – keeping your liver well energized with thyroid and sugar will gradually help you get rid of stored fat. And when you exercise on, for example, a low carbohydrate diet and start mobilizing more and more of these free fatty acids, some of them at an extreme will turn into ketones and the ketones are good safe energy for your brain and heart. And it's the free fatty acids that don't turn into ketones which are harmful and the problem with most of the free fatty acids is that on our current or 20th- century diet, these – our tissues are pretty well filled with polyunsaturated fatty acids and these, when they are liberated instead of supporting the full high metabolism, they suppress the mitochondrial metabolism by interfering with the thyroid hormone in proportion to how unsaturated they are. And so as soon as you get stressed enough to start eating your own stored fats, these stored fats if they are polyunsaturated, happen to block the thyroid function and turn your metabolism down, so you, within two or three days of going on a diet, a person’s metabolic rate drops so tremendously that at the end of 10 to 14 days they have lost very little weight but almost all of that weight is muscle tissue because of the stress produced by the low blood sugar. When they put people on a moderate low-calorie diet for the same length of time, they find that they lose mostly fat and very little protein tissues, so it's the degree of the free fatty acids being mobilized that suppress your ability to burn calories.

Josh Rubin: Right. And I hope everyone kind of gets that. The bottom line is if you don’t take in the right types of sugars you actually facilitate the stress reaction which facilitates the catabolic reaction, and if you’re storing toxins in your liver or gut, you can't detoxify them, if you have polyunsaturated fatty acid in your tissues and you start breaking down these tissues, you lose weight because you’re losing muscle mass but now you’re just perpetuating the stress cycle which actually will down- regulate the immune system of thyroid. So you might be “losing weight” but you’re actually doing it in a very unhealthy way . I want to go back to the fruits a little bit because I know you talk about ripe fruits a lot and I want you to touch on that for the listeners but also why – when you talk about oranges or orange juice why you recommend no pulp?

Dr. Ray Peat: This next month's newsletter is going to discuss that but basically it's that any pulp is a potential food for bacteria. They did experiments with rats, giving them various kinds of fiber, many of the most popular health food fibers increased the toxin formation in their intestines and they found that with fiber added to the diet, fiber that could be fermented by bacteria, the animals became both anxious and aggressive. And just leaving that fermentable fiber out, the animals were friendly and confident.

Josh Rubin: Did we lose him or…

Dr. Ray Peat: The commercial orange juice – in the last few years , there have been new technologies developed. You might have noticed that there is more pulpy orange juice on the market. I think it was about 15 years ago, the Environmental Protection Agency told the industry that their mountains of waste from making orange juice were attracting too many insects and other pests and they had to find a way to dispose of it And one of the technologies that they used to dispose of it was to dissolve it with enzymes and to leave a large part of the pulp dissolved in the orange juice When you squeeze a ripe orange naturally, if you let it stand in a glass in the fridge for a few hours, the bottom will be orange and the top will be clear, but much of the commercial orange juice, the fiber has been chemically altered so that it will never settle out and it's actually a new chemical substance that people have never eaten before and it's like any of the other gums o Fibers that can be intestinal toxins.

Josh Rubin: Right. Sounds like they are modernizing the juice.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, many of these fibers that people were thinking they were eating to protect against colon cancer, some of them actually increased the incidence of colon cancer in experimental animals.

Josh Rubin: So now they are using humans to dispose of all the – everything instead of throwing out for the insects which is becoming the disposal. That’s great. Cool. Awesome.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, it's the same thing that happened in the fish industry. The fish factories canneries were creating mountains of either land polluting fish waste or they were dumping it in the oceans and creating messes in the surrounding ocean and they were told to clean up their factories, and getting rid of the various components of the waste that contributed to the marketing of fish oil.

Josh Rubin: Right. Amazing. Now going back to the thymus, I know at least what I’ve read everyone says as we age our thymus shrinks, yada, yada, yada and you talk about how – not sure what article – and I could be quoting it incorrectly, how as we age your thoughts are because of PUFAs and radiation and all these different things and because we’re basically not getting the right types of sugars and when this catabolic state – I lost my chain of thought here – that we basically – will actually shrink the thymus because we’re in that stress state and it’s not normal for that to happen. Maybe that’s why we’re seeing all these autoimmune diseases or people on a weakened state.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, one of the functions of cortisol is to maintain blood sugar but one of the ways that does that is to block the use of sugar for most purposes that red cells can keep using it in the presence of cortisol. But immune cells that the thymus consists of mostly can't use sugar in the presence of cortisol and the presence of cortisol forces them to metabolize fats and especially unsaturated fats will quickly kill the thymus. And it only takes – I think it's about three hours typically for the thymus gland to disappear during profound stress. And so if a person is killed really instantly at a young age, they will still have a thymus gland but if it takes them a few hours to die, the thymus gland disappears, and that's really a part of the reason that they've thought that the thymus disappears in adulthood because by the time a person is dead they will have gone through some stress that melts the thymus gland very quickly. And given the right nutrition and hormones, the thymus can almost as quickly regenerate itself.

Josh Rubin: Interesting. Yes, I mean it’s amazing how many people have adrenal fatigue or have an autoimmune disease and it’s amazing that people aren’t looking at physiologically what the body is not getting, and a lot of the times like you say it’s people’s meals are either fat deficient or protein low, lot of times carb deficient meaning the wrong types of carbs or sugars per se. So talking about fruits and things like that, you talk about fruit juices, you’ve talked about which things to stay away from because of serotonin content and the fiber, so people know what fruits to eat. What about vegetables in regards to sugars? What’s your thoughts on the different vegetables? I know we talked about polyunsaturated fatty acids, so I don’t want to go tremendous into that, but what about like what are some of the vegetables you recommend and why?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, the low-fiber low-starch things, there are a few of them that are called vegetables. For example, small summer squash, they are actually fruits but since they are – they end up more starchy they are usually thought of as a vegetable. But if you eat a tender summer squash with some butter, the small amount of starch in it, if it's well-cooked and eaten with butter, it's very similar to eating fruit with high potassium content and high magnesium.

Josh Rubin: So would you say that most of the vegetables you recommend are either very close to the ground or even below the ground?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, generally the roots don't have – fruits are almost designed as food. They are food for the seeds and so they aren’t designed as a tissue that has to replace itself, like the leaves are part of the energy factory of the planet and the roots are essential but they are protected against grazing animals for example, and so they have antifungal chemicals more than anti- grazing animal chemicals. And so aside from those mild toxins that are mostly directed at bacteria and fungus, the roots are pretty free of the plant defensive toxins. And so if they are cooked – for example, young turnips and young potatoes that haven't maximized their starch production, eaten with butter after being thoroughly cooked are pretty safe. And potatoes are almost unique among the plant materials. The liquid part of the potato in between the starch grains happens to have the equivalent of amino acids besides some protein. These are keto acids which are – they can be used as fuel by the brain and heart as a substitute for sugar or fatty acids and they are really an ideal anti- stress fuel but they can also be – just by attaching an ammonia group, they can be turned instantly into the essential amino acids as needed. And so apart from the starch, the potato is a very amazing food. And I've seen a few cases of people who had basically incurable problems undiagnosed but they were clearly dying who just juicing a few pounds of potatoes and cooking the juice with a centrifugal juicer, you throw out the starch grains almost completely and then you cook it just like you were scrambling an egg and the juice coagulates so it's sort of like limp mashed potatoes, and this provides both energy and the essential amino acids but without stimulating insulin or cortisol, so it's sort of an emergency food for almost any stress problem. RL Veech is the famous ketone researcher who – his ideas are not being applied to cure Alzheimer's disease because the ketones provide energy that the deteriorating brain can't get from either fat or sugar. And so I think potato juice would be fairly, call them safe way to get the ketones Veech has been recommending.

Jeanne Rubin: And using the potatoes, Ray, would you still suggest using it in with a carbohydrate and a fat because it would be considered a protein or would it be used by itself, how exactly would you go about using that as a therapy vegetable for somebody?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, the people that I've known who used it, one was a man who hadn't slept for months and had almost no mentality but his sister made him a big bowl of the cooked juice and before he finished the bowl he was asleep, simply energized his brain enough that the stress hormones that he had been suffering from for months disappeared. And another one was a girl couldn't digest anything. She tried all kinds of food but she had wasted to weigh to about 65 pounds. Every time she would eat normal food, she would burp ammonia, and that was what gave me the idea because RL Veech had used his synthetic ketones for treating kidney disease patients who had problem of disposing of excess ammonia if they ate proteins. And since I knew that potatoes contain the ketones, I made her some juice and she ate it without burping ammonia and digested it perfectly well and just a few days of doing that and she was completely recovered just went straight up to 130 pounds.

Jeanne Rubin: That’s amazing.

Josh Rubin: Good stuff.

Dr. Ray Peat: And there are lots of tropical fruits that contain some, at least of these same keto acids, but several times over the last several years I've tried to get together the stuff but the chemical companies now won't sell even keto a acids and such things to independent researchers because of the new Homeland Security laws.

Josh Rubin: Right. Let's kind of skip a beat little. What’s your thoughts on honey and maple syrup?

Dr. Ray Peat: Honey is – basically it's almost pure s ugar with some minerals and so it's a good food. It isn't that much greater than just plain white sugar but slightly nutritious. And maple syrup is probably – chemically, it's probably more nutritious than honey. It has a very high potassium and good magnesium content, but the problem is that it's heat- treated, boiled down and very hot oxygen-exposed glucose can make some allergens, so you have to be cautious with any of the dark concentrated sugars like molasses from cane sugar or the maguey agave sugar, the same thing, it’s boiled down until it’s potentially allergenic.

Josh Rubin: Now while we brought it up because we have a lot more questions. While you’ve bought it up, let's talk a little bit about sugar itself, sucrose which is disaccharide, like the white table sugar, the white sugar that everyone says stay away from. You got people like

Dr. Lustig – was it Lustig, that talks about toxicity of it, Sugar: The Bitter Truth, I mean, everything bad about it. And then we have you who recommends it for particular reasons. And I think most people who are probably listening in for this more than anything, can you elaborate on what it is, why you recommend it, how use it, why you feel it doesn’t cause diabetes, I guess as much as you want?

Dr. Ray Peat: Okay. For about 45 years now, the mechanism of how diabetes comes to exist has been understood. It was an Argentine who did the first studies that just sort of incidentally showed that sugar was actually protective against diabetes but some Israeli researchers over the last 15 years or so have very clearly shown that it’s the polyunsaturated fats. And this was very clearly set up by a man named Randle and some people refer to it as the Randle cycle except there is no cycle involved. He showed that as your free fatty acids increase, your ability to use glucose decreases and that has been seen in the hospitalized patients when they give them an intravenous emulsion of soy oil for example. Within 15 minutes, there ability to metabolize glucose has practically disappeared but the Randle cycle is the instantaneous diabetogenic effect of the fatty acids, but if you do that chronically, you not only block the various tissue cells from using glucose but you gradually overstress and poison the beta cells in the pancreas from being able to keep producing insulin. And in some of the studies that I mentioned in a couple of newsletters, they have found that sugar stimulates regeneration of the beta cells in the pancreas.

Josh Rubin: And that was back in like the 1940s, right?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, that regeneration was just about five years ago, but it was in the 1940s that the first research was showing that sugar was protective.

Josh Rubin: So why do you think there is so much misconception? I mean, you have all these people saying it’s bad. I mean, my theory is on it but it’s a sucrose, so it’s glucose and fructose and how do you recommend people using it or do you recommend people using it and can you actually take too much of it in the body?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, you can produce the toxic effects in the animals, that's what so many people are doing, giving them 60% of their diet as sucrose or fructose, and at that point you can make them fat and get various signs that they interpreted as harmful but a lot of these studies even at the very high levels, they are exaggerating, taking things as sign of harm which are actually signs of adaptive corrective functions that if you extrapolate from their results that they get in five weeks or 10 weeks in animal studies, if you extrapolate the very data that they are publishing, it would look like the animals would have a better outcome at the end of their lifespan if they stayed on even the high fructose diets. There were a lot of these studies that are very clearly designed as propaganda against fructose and I don’t have any idea of what their motivation is but they are biologically and bio-chemically irrational and irrelevant. And probably about 100 people have sent me certain studies, three or four studies in particular keep appearing somehow they are circulating on the internet, and when you look at those studies that are being used as propaganda against fructose, they contain information that suggests even large amounts of fructose might be therapeutic but they are going back 20 or 30 years, you see enough research that it's actually defining the mechanism so you can somewhat judge how much fructose in the diet is safe. For example there were studies in which they added to just a standard Labcal [ph] [0-59-10] mixture, they would add the ability to drink say 30% sucrose water, very syrupy solution, or they could choose Coca-Cola plus their Labcal [ph] [0-59-31] and drink as much as they wanted or different percentages with usually pretty high percentage of sucrose in the diet. And these animals given for example Coca-Cola or the equivalent in sucrose were able to eat 50% more food than the animals on just the Labcal [ph] [0-59-55] without getting fat, in other words, a tremendous increase in their metabolic rate And that's one of the clues to the protective therapeutic effects of fructose is that it catalysis your ability to oxidize glucose at a higher rate. And so for a failing heart for example or a damaged liver, it works like the active T3 part of the thyroid hormone to increase the production of ATP and get the cell going as a catalyst and it doesn't really take very much fructose to have that boost in catalytic effect, so there is – I don't know what the minimum is but just a very small percentage of your diet can have an extremely beneficial effect and then there is a middle range where it's still not clear how much is safe and then the extreme range where you're eating almost nothing but sucrose or fructose where you do get some of degenerative processes, but those are being misrepresented really out of context by so many people.

Josh Rubin: Now when you say it’s not the sugars themselves but it’s our diet that’s high in the unsaturated fats that essentially makes the sugars look bad?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, when you look at the figures over the last 50 years for the national diet in the United States and a few other countries, a few people are saying that it's the high fructose corn syrup or the white sugar or something that's causing these degenerative diseases, diabetes, obesity and so on, but the real figures show that what’s increasing is calories and polyunsaturated fats and starches and actually a slight decrease in the proportion of sugars in that total but the calorie consumption has increased but mostly through starch and polyunsaturated fats. And those are the things that I think are well-established for causing obesity and a lot of the degenerative diseases. In the case of insulin, it's very clear that it's polyunsaturated fats.

Josh Rubin: Because it blocks sugar from getting in the cells so keeps your blood sugar levels high all the time?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes.

Josh Rubin: Okay. What are your thoughts on...

Jeanne Rubin: Well, it’s obviously very clear considering the amount of sugar that’s been taken or that’s how so many people are to sugar how it’s clearly not make having an influence looking at the numbers just curious same way have always thought that the same, I just know – this is now what I was looking at so it makes perfect sense with the shift in the diet?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, there are some studies that show that the toxic effect of these fibers that can cause anxiety, aggression and bowel cancer, fats defend against those processes by probably suppressing bacterial growth, and the best fats at suppressing bacterial and fungal growth in the intestine are the saturated fats, so butter and coconut oil for example are protective against the fibers, so it's important to include some of those in your daily intake. And if you get enough protein 80 to 100 calories or more – 80 to 100 grams per day or more, and if you consider the importance of fat and the essentiality of protein, then that leaves you only a certain amount for carbohydrate and that I think is where the fruit sugar and other sugars are a safe bet even if all the rest of your calories are in the form of fruit and other sugars I think that's safe as long as you're getting your saturated fat and protein.

Josh Rubin: Right. Yes, I think people need to realize it’s all about balance. It’s not just saying eat carbohydrates by themselves. As far as we always ate although the balanced of macronutrients, proteins, carbs and fats, the right type, the right ratios at the right times but always having them together. One thing I know is Ray is what are your thoughts on people are storing glycogen in their liver. What would cause someone to not be able to store enough glycogen or what would cause the liver’s inability to release the glycogen?

Dr. Ray Peat: Thyroid deficiency is the most common reason for that. The enzymes are very sensitive to the presence or absence of thyroid. Selenium is needed to activate the thyroid and ultimately the other B vitamins and all the nutrients are needed but the most common problems are low thyroid and low selenium. But to use the selenium to activate the thyroid, you need glucose. And the fructose happens to be the best stimulant for the liver to store glycogen. The current phobia people are talking about fructose increasing triglycerides but before it does that it powerfully helps the liver to replenish its glycogen stores. And then if you eat too much, you can eat a lot of excess sugar but since it stimulates your metabolic rate, it takes a big excess before you start converting much of it to the triglycerides and these triglycerides are then available for storage in your fat tissue. So the animal studies show that you can eat lots more calories in the form of sugar before you start storing the triglycerides in your adipose tissue.

Josh Rubin: Well, going on with that and talking about the fructose in the liver, do you feel that there is such thing as having an intolerance in these things because some people out there that say when I have fruit it doesn’t matter what I have, I just completely crash and I get spacy and I can't event have like one ounce of juice. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, can we have an intolerance to these things or no?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, some people who have been low thyroid for a long time have bacteria living right up there, the topside of their intestine, right up near the stomach, and some people even get conditions that will support fungal growth in their stomach and those – some usually about two or three people somewhere in the world are in that condition where if they drink juice, they will get drunk because their stomach is brewing alcohol at a high rate But short of that lots of people have the reaction from bacteria high up in the intestine which are competing for their absorptive systems, the bacteria, get the sugar as fast as they do. And usually the bacteria live in the lower parts of the intestine and the sugar is usually observed very quickly in the upper part of the intestine, it doesn't reach the bacteria. So if someone has been under stress and low thyroid, they can have that bacterial problem that makes them sensitive to sugars.

Josh Rubin: So how do you work around that, just introduce things a lot slower or just take other…

Dr. Ray Peat: It’s probably analogous to the lactase lactose problem. They talk about the lactase deficiency, but bacterial toxins injure the lining of the intestine. These studies have – I think there was one or two that showed a similar effect with sucrose but quite a few studies have shown that sickness can create the lactase deficiency. Low thyroid, low progesterone, or a bacterial infection, those are three of the known factors that affect the intestine's ability to breakdown lactose. And so you can, besides using small amounts of milk or in the case of the juice-sensitive people, small amounts, you would want to experiment with things that suppress the bacterial growth and replenish your thyroid and progesterone levels so that you can produce the proper sucrase and lactase enzyme. And that's one of the things that the fungicidal root vegetables can do. A raw carrot contains its defensive antibiotics that allow it to live in moist soil without rotting. And so if you grate a carrot or just eat raw carrots, you're suppressing a lot of these bacteria and fungi that will cause food reactions. Another plant that grows in dark moist conditions are the bamboo shoots that they are white because they haven't been exposed to the sunlight and so they are growing in humid warm conditions and they are a good source of antibiotics.

Josh Rubin: Now we’ve talked about it a couple of times and it keeps coming up and I know it’s a big topic for a lot of people and I know your view on is very different than other people’s views out there. This whole thing on Candida. Now we know that we actually have that inhabiting our GI system, it’s a symbiotic relationship, and you have a lot of people out there saying, well, if you have a Candida overgrowth that you need to cut out all sugars from the diet. Now what’s your take on why do we get the overgrowth and from what I’ve read your beliefs, I could be speaking wrong because we’re not getting enough sugar because they feed on sugar, so they are not getting enough, they are going to overgrow to kind of go elsewhere, it’s almost like an immune system reaction.

Dr. Ray Peat: René Dubos, who was a bacteriologist mostly, mentioned that – I think he had some pictures of the Candida-type yeast which were starved and when they are fed sugar, if you have a lot of them in your stomach you can get drunk on the fermenting sugars but in the intestine normally, if they are living far enough up the thing and get the sugar that they should be way down in lower intestine. Your sugar should be absorbed in the upper couple of feet, two or three feet of intestine. But if they do – it gets sugar, the worst they can do is make ethanol and ethanol in small amounts isn't at all harmful. And Dubos showed that if you starve these yeasts that are just happily making some ethanol out of the sugar, when they don't get sugar, they start sending out pseudopods or pseudohyphae I think he calls them, which are invasive filaments that will sink into the intestine looking for sugar and that's the point at which they can actually travel through your intestine and get into your systemic tissues looking for more glucose. So really having sugar in your diet if you have a fair investigation of yeast for some reason in your intestine, sugar is a defensive means while you are trying to figure out how to get rid of the yeast, which carrots will usually do really quickly.

Josh Rubin: It’s the same concept. Yes, I mean there is so much out there and I find there is so many people that are doing that “fungal diet” and actually it makes it worse and then we find when they follow a lot of your philosophies it actually down-regulates and I think of course the hypogeneral and hypocortisol state has a lot to do with it down- regulating that. Just a little caveat, there is a question from a listener. What are your thoughts on like stevia and xylitol, all these other “sweeteners” that everyone pushing. Are they harmless, are they harmful?

Dr. Ray Peat: In themselves I think they are pretty harmless but the problem is that there have been quite a few studies in both humans and animals in which the sweet taste activates your sugar metabolizing systems very powerfully and one of the consequences is that they tend to increase your appetite and they make you eat or want more calories than if you had eaten sugar. And so as a diet food, they are ineffective. And the fact that they are causing such major changes in things like glucagon and insulin and several of the related glucose handling systems, they haven't been in enough situations that people really know what the long-range effects are going to be that they might contribute to chronic stress for example by constantly confusing your system, telling your glucose regulating systems that you’re being provided what you need and then it turns out that you aren’t and so it triggers more of the cortisol to maintain the blood sugar.

Josh Rubin: One of the things we do notice with people and this is quite common is when we use the fruits and veggies, all goes well, people feeling great. When we start to filter in the sugar and using the sugar syrup, you know, cooking it down in small amounts over time, but noticing that some people do get acne. What are your thoughts on the acne? Is it because of insulin, is it because of androgens? Is it a liver detox issue? Is it maybe a vitamin A deficiency?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, I think things that activate your skin cause it to produce more moisture and oil and make it more attractive for germs to grow, and vitamin A is essential for several defensive processes including immune system as all of your surfaces become susceptible to infection in the vitamin A deficiency but especially an increasingly warm moist functioning skin needs more vitamin A. The thyroid which uses vitamin A to make the steroids will make your skin moisture and oilier under most conditions, and so sugar activating your thyroid revs up your ability of your skin cells to produce what they should be producing except if you’re deficient in vitamin A or some other immune factor, then you're going to grow bacteria in your skin.

Josh Rubin: So it’s more of an immune system kind of inhibition that’s creating it?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes.

Josh Rubin: And what would you recommend – would you recommend cutting out the sugar itself and using more of the fruits and vegetables until you kind of bring the system up a little bit more or – because I find with a lot of people this is quite common especially in women and I’m trying to figure out if it’s a detox liver issue, you know, adding in the vitamin A, it’s not really doing the trick or should we just cut out the actual sugar syrup, use the fruits and vegetables and then when we bring the body up to more of a homeostatic state, do we add in the sucrose?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, eggs and shellfish and fruits and cheese and milk, all of these are very effective at improving your immune system.

Josh Rubin: Okay.

Dr. Ray Peat: And have you ever heard of Emanuel Cheraskin? He was a dentist who did nutrition research. In one of his surveys, he plotted the number of symptoms people chronically had against the amount of vitamin A in their diet or supplements and he found that from very low vitamin A intake all the way up to 100,000 units a day, the symptoms and complaints decreased very consistently as the vitamin A increased. And I think that's because of its role in making the anti-stress hormones and the immune factors.

Josh Rubin: Right.

Dr. Ray Peat: And if your thyroid is low, too much vitamin A will suppress your thyroid. They have to be exactly balanced. And so some people who take big doses of vitamin A get symptoms of vitamin A deficiency as well as thyroid deficiency and the higher your metabolic rate the more vitamin A you need and can use.

Josh Rubin: So they are – sorry.

Dr. Ray Peat: Acne is a good indicator that you are doing something out of balance but it's hard to guess without blood tests.

Josh Rubin: Right, yes, that makes a lot of sense. Now I know your take on this but for the listeners what’s your take on the insulin resistance, like what is – what do you feel is creating this because everyone says it’s sugar. We work with people all over the world and we start talking about eliminating grains and we talk about vegetables and fruits and sugars. Everyone is so afraid, they are going to get insulin resistance or diabetes and all these things, so what are your thoughts on what’s creating it?

Dr. Ray Peat: It’s the polyunsaturated fats very clearly, and in many of the animal studies, sucrose, because of its fructose component, increases the ability to dispose of glucose nicely, so either increasing insulin sensitivity or not affecting it but still preventing hyperglycemia from eating more sugar. And you can instantly demonstrate the effect of polyunsaturated fats blocking the ability to use glucose.

Josh Rubin: And for people that are listening I’ll only ask that people can really start thinking outside the box and never believe everything you hear, really do the research. If you listen to one of our first shows with Ray, if you visit his website, you read his articles on unsaturated fats, it really makes a lot of sense. And then start applying some of the principles to see if it works and it’s a process, just A, because you have a negative symptom doesn’t mean you’re not moving forward, the healing process and his recommendations, if you can piece them together from the shows and articles or working with someone, it’s an entire healing process and it takes everything to the next level. It’s not just about eating food, it’s about eating the right types, ratios, frequencies to meet your metabolic needs and really finding out based off Achilles reflex or pulse in hand, if what you’re doing is actually is working, are you pushing yourself thermogenic, so it’s very important.

Dr. Ray Peat: I think you should usually see a good result within an hour or at most a day or two when you start avoiding the harmful things and getting the necessary things.

Jeanne Rubin: It is pretty rapid.

Josh Rubin: So I love it. Your enthusiasm. It’s just you make it seem so easy and it probably is. So what would you say if someone does start increasing their, let's say, they start eliminating all the PUFAs, they start eating “ according to your philosophy”. They are increasing their sugars and they are finding the balance but they are still getting a low temperature, would you say that maybe they had been in such a deficiency for so long that it’s going to take a little bit longer or is it maybe their body detoxing from the unsaturated fats or is maybe what they are doing just off?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, frequent feeding is one of the things that will help to keep from having the up-and-down reaction.

Josh Rubin: Okay.

Dr. Ray Peat: The fatter a person is, the longer it's going to take to get away from those stress reactions every time you forget to eat the right things. And women with a monthly cycle have to keep that in mind that the ability to handle sugar and fat varies with the amount of estrogen, thyroid and progesterone. And so typically women will have a relapse after a couple of weeks when they get into that part of their cycle, so women should think in terms of that maybe six weeks before they can get past the cyclic ups and downs.

Josh Rubin: Now talking about that, you talked about progesterone a little and thyroid and its relation to sugar and its importance. Can you elaborate a little bit on estrogen and how that plays a role in the inflammatory cycle of not getting enough sugar in our body or the right types of sugar I should say?

Dr. Ray Peat: Surprisingly some of the things that are blamed on fructose, such as increasing triglycerides, estrogen has been known to do that. Cortisol is really the main thing that increases the so-called inappropriate blood lipids. Good triglycerides made from sugar or other carbohydrate really aren’t harmful, they are just evidence that you are under stress and eating more than you need. And insulin and cortisol are usually the main factors increasing triglycerides, but estrogen tends to interfere with the oxidation of glucose and shifts you to being forced to oxidize polyunsaturated fats and tends to give you lower blood sugar problems, at least temporarily under the influence, and chronically all of the effects of impaired glucose oxidation and increased reliance on fatty acids. And the oxidative metabolism is disturbed in numerous ways by an excess of estrogen. So androgens and progesterone and thyroid are all protective against those effects of estrogen.

Josh Rubin: Now you’re talking about frequent heating and that’s something we really try to get people to do because we see a lot of people actually under-eat calorically which is kind of reiterating what we talked about but when people get sugar cravings, what are your thought on sugar cravings? I mean is it really just listening to your body and body saying, hey, I need more sugar in a sense?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, sometimes salt will help with that. Women on their monthly cycle at high estrogen times will typically have either or both sugar and salt cravings and women avoid the eating salt for example because they are told that it will cause them to retain water but it's also a diuretic, so if they overcome that phobia and eat salt just as they crave it, it will usually prevent many of the symptoms of the premenstrual problem of water retention and edema. The sodium helps to increase your metabolic rate, so you use sugar more efficiently. And so when you have a sugar craving, having something both salty and sugary is probably the best.

Josh Rubin: Interesting. Now can you really eat too much sugar? I mean, is it dangerous, can it happen or right now would you say that people are so deficient that it can't – it’s not really possible?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, your appetite is a pretty good guide when you get low blood sugar if you have a very concentrated form of sugar rather than fruit, if you eat a pound or two of candy for example, you'll probably feel sick. It probably is entering your stomach just by as osmotic concentration and it can cause diarrhea when it disturbs your intestine and stomach enough to overcome the adaptive ability to absorb it and handle it, but most of the claims of people like Lustig are really based on a lot of mistakes and misleading interpretations. I advocate using the fats regularly. Every time you eat, it's good to have some fat and protein at the same time. So I think appetite will usually tell a person that something is wrong if they try to go several hours with nothing but a lot of sugar.

Josh Rubin: Right. It’s all of the balance, all of the balance. Yes, I mean, there is just so much out there. I mean, this is a topic that it’s kind of endless but from studying yourself over the years and incorporating it’s definitely mean a change not only in our life but client’s lives because so many, you know, it’s like in front of us so many people are overweight and so many people staying away from these types of carbohydrates and sugars. And most people advocate staying away from “sugar” to lose weight, will you actually advocate staying next to it to lose weight?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, stimulating the metabolic rate, different studies say that it increases your ability by 25% or 50% to burn calories. And if you are backing that up with the balance of saturated fats and good proteins, it really is a help for losing weight but two other factors that help to increase your metabolic rate are the salt and calcium, and that's why I advocate cheese and milk as good proteins because of their high calcium content which helps to raise your body temperature and metabolic rate.

Josh Rubin: Right. Great stuff. So I guess I’m kind of lot of questions if we have any callers that have questions feel free to call in. I had a lot of people email me questions. I’m not sure if you want to add anything else Ray in regards to sugar , the stress reaction, the body hormones but I think people listening to this of course probably listen to it over and over again and if they connect the dots and all makes sense and I think my biggest – my recommendation or my perception of Ray’s work is you have to really read through it and connect the dots because it’s not – it’s there, you just have to really read through it and start connecting things and making sense of it. And when you do , it’s going to be very enlightening, little brain twisting but very enlightening So do you have anything to add, Ray?

Dr. Ray Peat: No.

Jeanne Rubin: I think we covered a lot of really great stuff in there. I’m very excited about getting it out there and allowing people a little bit more information because it’s been a big question for a lot of people and I think it creates – allows for a lot of clarification on the matter?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, I’ve been thinking of writing an article about fructose and sucrose beyond the one I did on diabetes or the glycemic effects.

Josh Rubin: Yes.

Jeanne Rubin: I think that would be brilliant, Ray. We have read that article at least 20 times and [indiscernible] [1-33-07] breaking it down but it’s so fascinating because it really is understanding the different types and how the body is able to metabolize and use the energy efficiently and it’s clear that the people have gotten very confused that all the different things that they are reading and that are being presented to them of what’s right and what’s wrong and this again is a way the body works makes perfect sense.

Josh Rubin: Yes. Hey Ray, we have a caller. Do you mind taking a caller?

Dr. Ray Peat: Okay Josh Rubin

: Let me get them on. Caller from 847, you’re on the air.

Q: Yes, I’m here. Hello.

Josh Rubin: You’re on the air. Do you have a question for Ray?

Q: Yes, I have question for – yes, I do.

Josh Rubin: Go for it.

Q: Okay, I wanted to ask him, I have problems with drinking milk that it creates a lot of mucus, cow’s milk. It's not so much though when I have goat’s milk. What I'm wondering is I still kept starch like in the form of corn. If I stopped all that kind of starch, would I be able to tolerate milk again, would it not make me mucusy?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, goat’s milk is fine and cheese – if you can get cheeses without additives, they are nutritionally just about as valuable as fresh milk. But the starches in corn and other grains are complex enough that a lot of them won't be digested by human enzymes and so they feed bacteria. And the type of bacteria that you happen to have will govern the kind of reaction you have to those starches. So having a food like raw carrot in your diet regularly helps if you're going to eat some starches periodically, carrot helps to reduce those allergy effects that cause mucus.

Jeanne Rubin: Does that your answer your question?

Q: So that probably switch back – I was wondering so I could probably – I’d like to go back to cow’s milk because it’s cheaper and it’s easier to get, so I guess that if I had the carrots then I would be able to go back to cow’s milk and get off goat’s milk.

Dr. Ray Peat: And sometimes changing the brand, I've noticed that at the same supermarket one brand of milk will cause digestive irritation, something the cow’s ate I think, and if the milk tastes good I find it usually is easiest on my digestion. And some people have told me that the ultra-pasteurized milk that was heated to a very high temperature, it’s a little lower in some nutrients but people tell me that they can handle that better than fresh milk and other people react to that but don't react to fresh milk. So trying switching brands of cow's milk might make a difference.

Q: Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Josh Rubin: Thank you.

Jeanne Rubin: Ray, you keep mentioning – I have a quick question. You keep mentioning like the raw carrot and I completely understand the purpose of it. Would you recommend eating that by itself or would you recommend eating it along with other sugars?

Dr. Ray Peat: It contains a little bit of sugar and that's pretty much the only thing you absorb from it. If you eat a lot of it and have a low thyroid, you might absorb enough carotene to have an anti-thyroid effect\ so you want to look at the palms of your hands occasionally, see that you aren’t getting orange calluses but it prevents the absorption of anything you eat with it or slows it greatly, so you don't want to eat a big plate of carrot salad when you're eating your main meal because you might have low blood sugar for a couple of hours because it's blocking the nutrients.

Jeanne Rubin: Okay.

Josh Rubin: We have one more caller. Do you want to take one more caller, Ray?

Dr. Ray Peat: Sure.

Josh Rubin: Okay. Caller from 417, you’re on the air.

Q: Yes, thank you. I was referred to Dr. Peat a couple of months ago by someone and I have actually Stage IV melanoma and – anyway I've not gone through the traditional orthodox approaches. They really have no hope for what I'm doing and I changed my diet pretty radically by based on what I understood Dr. Peat to teach. And essentially I guess the question is this. I was instructed the potatoes and sugar but balance it with cream of tartar for the potassium content and the saturated fats, butter and coconut oil, and actually rice products, gluten etcetera and I just wondered if there was anything else because I know there are people out there who may not have melanoma but they do have cancer. I know people who do have cancer or people who have immune suppressive disorders that if that's a ? diet for someone such as myself as the most conflicting problem I have is no matter where I turn, they say eat this and don't read this and then I found Dr. Peat suggesting very impressive and that it makes sense. And so anyway my biggest struggle right now is what should I eat knowing how critical my body condition is that I can't afford to make mistakes in this point forward too much

Dr. Ray Peat: How does your intestine react to things like potatoes?

Q: Actually it has responded very well. I had no issues there at all. Just my – I've gotten so much weaker not since I started what you told me but I was getting weaker before that, so on a scale of one to 10, I’m probably about a three or so. I just don't have the energy to do a whole lot of anything.

Dr. Ray Peat: Are you getting enough calcium from cheese or milk or something?

Q: Probably not. Actually I was told by a person not to take calcium that they did a urine sediment test or something and said I had too much calcium but I – so, no, that's one thing that I’m low on. I'm probably intake-wise I really haven't really eaten except for butter, that's probably about it.

Dr. Ray Peat: The parathyroid hormone tends to promote tumor growth and eating plenty of calcium and adequate amounts of vitamin D and vitamin K, K1 and K2, help you handle the calcium. And I think probably takes 1,500 milligrams a day of calcium anyway to get your parathyroid hormone down and to a safe range.

Q: Okay. So supplement with – I have been taking vitamin D, at least 5,000 units a day and I have even lot of vitamin K from vegetables, although I've been cautioned not to eat too many of those. Now even though I’ve eaten very nutritiously and healthfully in the last decade, that's what's so surprising and I think though that maybe I did too much with seeds and nuts and veggies, I'm not sure, but for whatever reason my body gave out.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, I think seeds and nuts are a problem for anyone because of the unsaturated fats in them. And coconut oil, I think refined odorless coconut oil can be a big part of your calorie intake. Some cancer therapies have used, I think as much as five ounces a day of refined coconut oil.

Q: One kind of real quick thing here and that is – because I do a lot of research and that's been kind of my life anyway, not to your degree, but that there is a physician in Ohio who advocates this heavy use of fish oil for cancer therapy and then I found a research paper and I actually spoke to the physician back in Boston who has done all these studies. I know mice were not the same as humans but how fish oil had a profound impact on melanoma in these laboratory results that they have over the last five years. And so again I realize that there are articles that talk about fish oil being detrimental for colon cancer and other things and then you might find it beneficial here or there, but I know that wasn't your subject matter today with fish oils. But again, do you have any impact in terms of how that might be where the lab might profound improvement with fish oil?

Josh Rubin: People who funded those labs and the laboratory, I mean, that’s a hug e factor in regards to what they are looking for in my opinion.

Dr. Ray Peat: Do you use any aspirin?

Q: I have just started recently taking that. I was told that that had an anti-inflammatory impact, so I just started that.

Dr. Ray Peat: I just heard from someone about a week ago who has – he was on the anti-AIDS drugs and getting sick but he stopped them and he is now using 4.5 grams a day of aspirin and his blood tests showed that all of his immune factors that are known to promote inflammation and tumor growth, they were all down in the normal range and aspirin seems to be the basic thing. I’ve had outbreaks of things that a couple of doctors were sure where melanoma is a big black growing things and when I have an outbreak of those I a few times have applied either progesterone or DHEA near them and they quickly moved away or disappeared or fell off but basically increasing my thyroid to the point where I’m hyper-metabolic will make all of the visible ones dry up and you stop growing or eventually fall off.

Q: Okay. And so taking desiccated thyroid be a good idea?

Dr. Ray Peat: No, what I’ve always used since the original Armour stuff being available 20 years ago, I've been using either Cytomel or Cynomel, a Mexican version of Cytomel, which is quick-acting and so you can adjust the dose up and down. So if you get two hyper-metabolic and out of breath, you can stop taking it for a few hours and come back to a comfortable level. But I've seen several people, someone just a few weeks ago had a mole that was growing and was about two inches long and within a week when he took big doses of Cytomel, it had disappeared.

Q: Impressive.

Josh Rubin: I’m going to take another caller.

I’m going to take another caller Q: Thank you very much.

Josh Rubin: Yes.

Jeanne Rubin: Thank you.

Josh Rubin: Thanks for calling in. Ray, we got time for one more. Do you mind taking one more caller?

Dr. Ray Peat: Sure.

Josh Rubin: I meant to ask you this at the beginning of the show. It’s a huge caveat. Do you prefer that we call you Ray or Dr. Peat or what do you prefer?

Dr. Ray Peat: Ray is good.

Josh Rubin: Okay, I just want to make sure. I meant to ask you at the beginning of the show but I always call you Ray and it just happened and I know you’re a PhD, so I want to make sure that if you want to be called doctor, I’ll call you doctor.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, PhDs aren’t doctor but under law.

Josh Rubin: I know but some people. Okay . Caller from the 610, you’re on the air. You got a question for Ray?

Q: Yes. My name is Andrew. I have [indiscernible] [1-46-

37] delayed sleep phase syndrome, so I usually can't fall asleep until 4: 00 or 6

: 00 AM and I can't wake up until late in the afternoon. And I wonder if that’s the problem with adrenaline?

Dr. Ray Peat: The sound is very spotty. All I could hear was a problem with adrenaline.

Q: I’m sorry.

I have insomnia so I can't fall asleep until 6: 00 in the morning.

Dr. Ray Peat: For falling asleep, sometimes very small dose of thyroid. One doctor who had been awake for two or three days absolutely awake, I gave him 10 micrograms of Cytomel and the next day he said that stuff is better than morphine.

Q: I’ve been taking Cynoplus and they worked the first day and then the effects wore off.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes, the sugar is the next best thing. I use a glass of sugar with maybe two or three tablespoons, a glass of warm milk and three tablespoons of sugar dissolved in it will usually have an effect similar to the thyroid.

Q: Okay. Great. Thanks. That helps. One quick – one more quick question . I heard that you can use just pure T3 to figure out your – the thyroid dose that you need and then later you can go back and switch that over to a desiccated or to Cynoplus.

Dr. Ray Peat: For a person who is in a hurry, that's the way to find your total requirement.

Q: Okay. So when you’re converting the dose, how much – how does the T3 converts it to T4 in equivalency?

Dr. Ray Peat: The traditional equivalency is 100 micrograms of T4 or equivalent to 25 micrograms of T3 or one grain of traditional Armour thyroid, but that really depends on how much sugar is in your diet and how high your cortisol is and several things. So those are just traditional rough estimates and it might be very different for some people.

Q: Is there a dose that some people find that works really well like are people using 30 micrograms or 60?

Dr. Ray Peat: Well, the body only producers four micrograms per hour typically, and so whenever you take more than that, if you're going to take 10 micrograms, it’s good to have with food so you don't absorb so much that your body experiences the excess. It's good to supplement in something like two micrograms per hour on average, so 10 micrograms with lunch will spread out for a few hours as you digest.

Q: Okay. Thanks a lot.

Josh Rubin: Thanks for calling in All right, so I think that wraps it up. We’re almost out of time here unless you have anything else to add in there, Ray. I think we covered a lot today. I know I learned a lot. Going to have to listen this show 10 times again. Anything else to add?

Dr. Ray Peat: No.

Josh Rubin: Okay . Well, once again, we really appreciate you coming on. I know the listeners really honestly appreciate, not only coming on the show but the work you do, the honesty and modesty that you have and just the philosophies you’re putting out there. So we definitely appreciate everything you do.

Dr. Ray Peat: Okay. And thanks for having the show.

Josh Rubin: All right, Ray. Have a great day.

Jeanne Rubin: Thanks Ray. Have a great afternoon.

Dr. Ray Peat: Okay.

Jeanne Rubin: All right. Bye-bye.

Josh Rubin: All right, guys. There you go. Another show with Ray. Keep in mind I just want to say something. This philosophy is not cookie-cutter . It’s not take this much of that, this much of this. Eat this fruit and you’ll be awesome or eat this much protein and fat you’re going to be great . Everything is person-dependent and that’s the tough part with it because it’s not cookie-cutter. And you have to keep in mind that Ray makes it seem so easy and I’m sure it is but I know it’s challenging for a lot of people and you can't just start eating the foods you recommend and go, this doesn’t work. It’s all the process of fine-tuning and that’s when this really comes in. At the same time, if you’re thinking about buying these supplementations or medications he is talking about, they are actually quite useful if you nutrition frequencies ratios calories is not in order, you can actually cause more harms. So don’t start jumping on the internet and buying T3, it can actually make things a lot worse and take it and convert it into reverse T3. So make sure you’re really studying his philosophy, go to this website, listen to our radio shows, you can work with people like us. We have clients all over the world. There is other people out there as well that are trained in his philosophies. So definitely find someone because it’s not easy. It’s a process and it’s a process of really understanding the body and the foods we’re eating and how our body reacts to them and how to adjust based on our metabolic demands. So hopefully you’ve enjoyed the show. We don’t have our next show scheduled. I got to email Ray, thinking about maybe doing it on salts and dairy or something like that, but definitely appreciate everyone tuning in again and supporting us. It really means a lot and that’s about it guys. I’ll see you guys later.

Jeanne Rubin: Good day.

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